Value in 2021 - M20C out of annual

[Stephen Slate]

Hello, I am new to the forum and have been browsing a bit and this is an amazing resource.  

I have an opportunity to buy an M20C that has been flown every few weeks, but very low usage in the last 10 years.  It hasn't been annualed in a few years.  The logs are complete.  The engine is around 2000 hours but seems to run well.  It hasn't been loved, but has ADS-B and was IFR prior (needs recertification).  

It looks like it needs some love, what the HELL is it worth?  I got the feeling the owner doesn't know what it's worth, but he's asking 50K.  I see planes on the market with 50K asking prices that I would never fly in... but they aren't selling so those aren't real numbers.  Then if they do go, we don't know what they actually sold for.  

Thoughts?

Thanks, I look forward to learning a lot!

Stephen

[dzeleski]

  On 3/17/2021 at 8:16 PM, Stephen Slate said:

I have an opportunity to buy an M20C that has been flown every few weeks, but very low usage in the last 10 years.  It hasn't been annualed in a few years.

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How is it being flown every few weeks if it has not been through annual in a few years? Or is there a typo in there somewhere?

Heres the thing, do you want to work on an airplane or fly an airplane? Personally I would just find an airplane that doesnt have so many question marks around it unless you are an A&P and have the time to do it.

Not sure what its worth but its definitely not worth 50k if it has not had an annual in years.

[TomH]

Bought a d to c conversion this past summer. 
Similar situation to what you described - though only around 1100 on engines, and no adsb. 
Price was a little less than 30 and I ended up paying a little less than that. 
Definitely a gamble on this type of purchase. 
Since that time I’ve added 130 hours to the clock and had no significant issues outside of the starter going out. 
 

Good luck, I share the opinion of many around here that the C is the best deal going in aviation, both in purchase and operation. 

[Hank]

Cs are great planes! Price this as needing an engine overhaul since it's right at TBO. Then start subtracting--

• What shape are the tires in (dry rot)?
• How are the tanks? They should be stored at least half full to preserve tank sealant. Or they leak . . . $7000 repair, plus transportation. 
• Radio age?
• Gyros functional?
• Are the windows crazed from outside storage?
• Paint condition
• Interior condition 

So many things in a plane deteriorate when it sits unloved for several years . . . . .

[gsxrpilot]

Let's see, what does a $50K M20C look like.

• Currently in annual and airworthy
• It will be flying regularly, probably between 50 and 100 hours per year. 100 is better.
• Complete logs or at least complete for the last 30 years
• ADSB out
• Everything in the panel will work, except for the ADF.

It will have at least one, and probably two, of the following:

• Autopilot - Stec30 or better
• WAAS GPS - GNS430W or better
• Mid-time engine between 500 - 1000 SMOH

Note: to rectify any of the above three items is a $20K bill. 

You will feel comfortable to hand over the check, pick up the keys and fly it for the next 12 months without doing anything to it.

[67 m20F chump]

That’s not a plane that’s a project.   Do you want to fly or work on it?  If the owner thinks it’s worth 50k it will be hard to get him to reality.  That’s a plane that will sit and rot then get parted out.

[ZuluZulu]

  On 3/17/2021 at 8:33 PM, dzeleski said:

How is it being flown every few weeks if it has not been through annual in a few years? Or is there a typo in there somewhere?

Heres the thing, do you want to work on an airplane or fly an airplane? Personally I would just find an airplane that doesnt have so many question marks around it unless you are an A&P and have the time to do it.

Not sure what its worth but its definitely not worth 50k if it has not had an annual in years.

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Seriously, if the plane's been out of annual for years yet flies every few weeks, you've got to be suspicious of what other regulations the owner believes he can ignore.

[DXB]

  On 3/17/2021 at 8:16 PM, Stephen Slate said:

Hello, I am new to the forum and have been browsing a bit and this is an amazing resource.  

I have an opportunity to buy an M20C that has been flown every few weeks, but very low usage in the last 10 years.  It hasn't been annualed in a few years.  The logs are complete.  The engine is around 2000 hours but seems to run well.  It hasn't been loved, but has ADS-B and was IFR prior (needs recertification).  

It looks like it needs some love, what the HELL is it worth?  I got the feeling the owner doesn't know what it's worth, but he's asking 50K.  I see planes on the market with 50K asking prices that I would never fly in... but they aren't selling so those aren't real numbers.  Then if they do go, we don't know what they actually sold for.  

Thoughts?

Thanks, I look forward to learning a lot!

Stephen

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Welcome to Mooneyspace.  So he's flying it out of annual for the past few years?? I guess that's better than not flying at all from a buyer's perspective, but yikes!  The market has firmed up considerably over the past decade for these planes, but there's still aren't any C models out of annual with a run out engine that are worth 50k. There are multiple red flags here that say run away fast - this might be a good low cost acquisition (<<50k) for a seasoned buyer who happens to also be an A&P, not a newbie.  Good luck finding your plane. 

[MIm20c]

I’m curious for those who don’t care about having insurance or liability coverage what the real risk is flying a plane well out of annual?  Loss of license or something much worse?  I read thread after thread of people wrenching on there own planes. Out of all the logs I’ve read over I’d say almost a quarter were pencil wiped.  This plane might be very similar to a good portion of our fleet minus a lazy IA overworking his pen. 

[carusoam]

A real rat of an M20C in barely AW condition would sell in mid 30amu range... 20 years ago...

a PPI 

an annual

a budget for problem areas

 A willingness to take on financial risks are a +

Afford as much training as you can get...

Welcome to the entry level of owning a great plane...

keep both eyes open as you move forwards... 

Best regards,

-a-

[DXB]

  On 3/17/2021 at 9:52 PM, MIm20c said:

I’m curious for those who don’t care about having insurance or liability coverage what the real risk is flying a plane well out of annual?  Loss of license or something much worse?  I read thread after thread of people wrenching on there own planes. Out of all the logs I’ve read over I’d say almost a quarter were pencil wiped.  This plane might be very similar to a good portion of our fleet minus a lazy IA overworking his pen. 

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I'm guessing that if you're too lazy and indifferent to the regs to keep your plane in annual, even by pencil whipping, you're also very likely to ignore and/or cut the corner most other maintenance.

[MIm20c]

I’m just trying to shake up these threads a little. But the way I see it you can protect your life, license, assets and/or plane value.  No reason you can’t pick and choose depending on your risk tolerance to any one or all categories. 

[cferr59]

  On 3/17/2021 at 9:52 PM, MIm20c said:

I’m curious for those who don’t care about having insurance or liability coverage what the real risk is flying a plane well out of annual?  Loss of license or something much worse?  I read thread after thread of people wrenching on there own planes. Out of all the logs I’ve read over I’d say almost a quarter were pencil wiped.  This plane might be very similar to a good portion of our fleet minus a lazy IA overworking his pen. 

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Wrenching on your own plane is a lot different than flying out of annual.  An owner pilot is given a lot of leeway about what is considered preventive maintenance (Coleal) and  I imagine most owners work with their A&P to get sign offs when necessary.  It is very clear that the airplane must be in annual.

Interestingly, I doubt there is any consequence to flying out of annual assuming you don't crash.  In the unlikely event you were ramp checked, you wouldn't have the log books with you anyway and I doubt the FAA will insist you produce them unless there is an obvious defect.  That said, for my own peace of mind and for FAA compliance, I am happy to have my plane checked once a year by a qualified mechanic.

[Stephen Slate]

These replies have been great.  The current owner has loved having the plane, but hasn't done anything to show that affection...  ie, things are dirty and stinky with disaster potentially lurking at every bend, not unlike my lower intestine.  I know the registration is expired, the annual is out but he's a confident guy who loves his plane and it seems to love him, so he flies it with reckless abandon.  I am going to run it through the mechanic and see what it will take to get her back in annual and go from there.  Sound smart?  

[J0nathan225]

  On 3/18/2021 at 12:04 AM, Stephen Slate said:

These replies have been great.  The current owner has loved having the plane, but hasn't done anything to show that affection...  ie, things are dirty and stinky with disaster potentially lurking at every bend, not unlike my lower intestine.  I know the registration is expired, the annual is out but he's a confident guy who loves his plane and it seems to love him, so he flies it with reckless abandon.  I am going to run it through the mechanic and see what it will take to get her back in annual and go from there.  Sound smart?  

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So it has been flying out of annual...So its an illegally flown project plane, offer 20k? 21k? for his Love of it? I'd imagine nothing has been maintained or worked onto to the level it should.  Good luck, at least there is a higher chance the engine isn't shot. 

I kind of think he shouldn't have a license, but safety be damned? I guess that wouldn't stop him either. 

[cferr59]

  On 3/18/2021 at 12:04 AM, Stephen Slate said:

These replies have been great.  The current owner has loved having the plane, but hasn't done anything to show that affection...  ie, things are dirty and stinky with disaster potentially lurking at every bend, not unlike my lower intestine.  I know the registration is expired, the annual is out but he's a confident guy who loves his plane and it seems to love him, so he flies it with reckless abandon.  I am going to run it through the mechanic and see what it will take to get her back in annual and go from there.  Sound smart?  

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It doesn't sound like a good deal.  Does it have modern avionics and a good autopilot?   It sounds like the engine is close to runout and there are years of logs that should have been, but have not been created. 

[carusoam]

On the scale of good and bad...

what makes you want a plane on the bad end of the scale?

if this is your thing, pursue it...

Everyone has a reason for doing so...

or paying more to avoid doing so...

PP thoughts only...

Best regards,

-a-

[Stephen Slate]

  On 3/18/2021 at 12:37 AM, carusoam said:

On the scale of good and bad...

what makes you want a plane on the bad end of the scale?

if this is your thing, pursue it...

Everyone has a reason for doing so...

or paying more to avoid doing so...

PP thoughts only...

Best regards,

-a-

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Great question, I am the guy who enjoys a project.  I am thinking if I can get it for under 30K, and the mechanic doesn't find anything crazy, I might go for it.  

[Stephen Slate]

  On 3/18/2021 at 12:32 AM, cferr59 said:

 

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the Avionics are ok.  Has GPS and new ads-b and a few grand spent recently there.  The autopilot may have a vacuum problem as it was working until recently (so they say). 

 

  23 minutes ago, cferr59 said:

  On 3/18/2021 at 12:32 AM, cferr59 said:

It doesn't sound like a good deal.  Does it have modern avionics and a good autopilot?   It sounds like the engine is close to runout and there are years of logs that should have been, but have not been created. 

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[gsxrpilot]

  On 3/18/2021 at 1:01 AM, Stephen Slate said:

The autopilot may have a vacuum problem

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That's not an autopilot... or not one worth talking about.

Autopilot = Stec30 or better.

[gsxrpilot]

  On 3/18/2021 at 12:56 AM, Stephen Slate said:

Great question, I am the guy who enjoys a project.  I am thinking if I can get it for under 30K, and the mechanic doesn't find anything crazy, I might go for it.  

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Are you an A&P? If not, this is only a project for your bank account. 

An old car is a project, an old house is a project, maybe a boat or motorcycle. With airplanes, if you're not an A&P, you're pretty much relegated to standing around writing checks and watching while someone else ignores your "project" in the corner of the maintenance hangar. 

There are some rare occasions where someone is such close friends with an A&P that they can do some of the work and have it signed off and pay a discounted rate. But baring that situation... 

[gsxrpilot]

I might have to dig up the old list again. We've been hit with another rash of wannabe owners jumping into project Mooneys.

[chriscalandro]

It's not worth more than low 20s.  Before you go any further see where he's at and if that's a possibility.  If it is, go look at it.

 

My C for ref - 

IFD440
Icom A220
Garmin GMA345
Dual 10'' Dynon HDX
Dynon Rmt Transponder
Dynon Engine monitoring
615 SMOH
Paint 1/10
Interior 7/10
flew 200 hrs last year.
Wired for Dynon autopilot (awaiting certification)

 

If someone offered me 72.5 depending on the day I'd take it.

 

For you to build my airplane not counting motor or any of that, based on avionics and equipment only, assuming you got a 25k airplane starter pack -

about 40k not counting installation + 25k in airframe.

 

That's the bare minimum to be where I'm at minus engine time and maint items.

 

[MIm20c]

  On 3/18/2021 at 1:01 AM, Stephen Slate said:

the Avionics are ok.  Has GPS and new ads-b and a few grand spent recently there.  The autopilot may have a vacuum problem as it was working until recently (so they say). 

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When looking at a cheaper aircraft like an older Mooney I’ve found you can make huge jumps in aircraft quality with very little extra outlay. Keep looking for a different aircraft that has received more love. An extra 25k spent now might save you from years of aggravation. 

[chriscalandro]

  On 3/18/2021 at 1:55 AM, gsxrpilot said:

There are some rare occasions where someone is such close friends with an A&P that they can do some of the work and have it signed off and pay a discounted rate. But baring that situation... 

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My experience with myself and others is that if you prove yourself to be competent and have a good relationship with an IA, most are willing to work with you.  Especially with a Mooney and they don't want to do the work.

 

I wouldn't call it rare, I'd call it pretty common, but maybe it's been my locations and my circles.