Rosen Sunvisors - again :)

[PT20J]

25 minutes ago, Alan Maurer said:

Hello, I bought them from Rosen for my 2008 Ovation and installed them myself. It was easy. I don't remember if there was any paperwork issue of any sort.

 

It would have come with a copy of the STC including the AML and a permission letter granting you permission to use the STC to install the sun visors. Don't worry about it. Only a wet behind the ears IA would notice the sun visors and question the lack of a logbook entry and STC paperwork. If she/he were that anal, I'd go find another one.

People get this all mixed up because they look at the definitions of major and minor alterations and decide that sun visors are obviously a minor alteration. What gets missed is that you are only allowed to put approved parts on a certificated airplane. It's not the modification, it's the part that's the issue.

Suppose you buy a part from Mooney. No problem as the manufacturer is automatically approved to supply parts for their products. OK, now you buy a new Garmin GPS. No problem, since avionics are built to comply with a TSO, so you're covered. Nuts and bolts? They are standard hardware built to published industry specifications (AN, NAS, MS, SAE, etc.) and the FAA allows their use. Suppose you want to buy a Millennium cylinder from Superior Air Parts. Well, that comes with a PMA. Superior had to reverse engineer the design and prove to the FAA that their part was form, fit and function equivalent to the original manufacturer's part in order to be granted the PMA. What about a LoPresti cowling? Well, that's obviously a new design and requires an STC to install it. LoPresti would also have to have a PMA which is authorization to produce the parts you need to install the STC. 

So, what about Rosen. Well, their sun visors don't look anything like the Mooney parts -- that's the point. So, back when they were approved, the FAA must have thought they were more like a LoPresti cowling than a Millennium cylinder, thus the STC. Obviously, some FAA folks decided this was overkill and have allowed some parts (like the side window example I gave above) to get approved with simply a PMA. 

Skip

[PT20J]

6 minutes ago, Little Dipper said:

I'm bought a set of Rosens last summer for my Ovation and am thinking about getting rid of them.   They are too damn big.

You can easily cut down the plastic. @DonMuncy has a nice somewhat smaller outline. Maybe he'd share his template or cut yours down for you.

[CharlesHuddleston]

I will agree whole-heartedly about the above-mentioned @DonMuncy's 'owner-produced' set. I recently got a set for my '82K and they are great. Certainly less expensive than Rosen, and leaps above the OEM design. 

[A64Pilot]

9 hours ago, PT20J said:

It would have come with a copy of the STC including the AML and a permission letter granting you permission to use the STC to install the sun visors. Don't worry about it. Only a wet behind the ears IA would notice the sun visors and question the lack of a logbook entry and STC paperwork. If she/he were that anal, I'd go find another one.

People get this all mixed up because they look at the definitions of major and minor alterations and decide that sun visors are obviously a minor alteration. What gets missed is that you are only allowed to put approved parts on a certificated airplane. It's not the modification, it's the part that's the issue.

Suppose you buy a part from Mooney. No problem as the manufacturer is automatically approved to supply parts for their products. OK, now you buy a new Garmin GPS. No problem, since avionics are built to comply with a TSO, so you're covered. Nuts and bolts? They are standard hardware built to published industry specifications (AN, NAS, MS, SAE, etc.) and the FAA allows their use. Suppose you want to buy a Millennium cylinder from Superior Air Parts. Well, that comes with a PMA. Superior had to reverse engineer the design and prove to the FAA that their part was form, fit and function equivalent to the original manufacturer's part in order to be granted the PMA. What about a LoPresti cowling? Well, that's obviously a new design and requires an STC to install it. LoPresti would also have to have a PMA which is authorization to produce the parts you need to install the STC. 

So, what about Rosen. Well, their sun visors don't look anything like the Mooney parts -- that's the point. So, back when they were approved, the FAA must have thought they were more like a LoPresti cowling than a Millennium cylinder, thus the STC. Obviously, some FAA folks decided this was overkill and have allowed some parts (like the side window example I gave above) to get approved with simply a PMA. 

Skip

STC parts are sourced from a PMA, but the PMA holder may not have actually made the part, they may have simply gone to the parts house and bought it.

So no, the STC isn’t used to approve the part, the PMA does.

‘It’s not the manufacturer or the manufacturing process that approves a part, where I worked we bought many parts off the shelf, the engine control cables came from a boat manufacturer and the brake master cylinder from NAPA for instance as were a great many “COTS” parts  (Commercial Off The Shelf), what made them “approved” was that they were processed through our Quality Control system.

So a PMA manufacturer can buy say an alternator from the actual manufacturer, do a visual inspection and a little paperwork and Volia it’s an FAA approved part, without testing or anything special done at all.

All manufacturers do this of course, airplanes are insanely expensive now, imagine if every single piece part had to be custom manufactured where there was no economy  of scale.

The Millenium cylinder is an excellent example. So something complex and critical as a engine cylinder can be installed without involving an IA and paperwork, but a Sun Visor can’t? 

[A64Pilot]

9 hours ago, CharlesHuddleston said:

I will agree whole-heartedly about the above-mentioned @DonMuncy's 'owner-produced' set. I recently got a set for my '82K and they are great. Certainly less expensive than Rosen, and leaps above the OEM design. 

How does one go about purchasing a set?

[DonMuncy]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

How does one go about purchasing a set?

You can message me here, email me at muncy-d@hotmail.com, or call me at 214 207-6744.

[DonMuncy]

Incidentally, if you want to tell me the size, material, some other specification, etc., I can make them as an owner produced part, and thus legal (in my opinion) part.

[A64Pilot]

5 minutes ago, DonMuncy said:

Incidentally, if you want to tell me the size, material, some other specification, etc., I can make them as an owner produced part, and thus legal (in my opinion) part.

Reading the FAA definition of owner produced part, I’d say that by supplying that information meets the requirement of an owner produced part, so my opinion concurs with yours and I believe pretty much follows the definition exactly.

‘For those that are interested, this AC covers aircraft parts, for owner produced scroll down to (n)

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC 20-62E.pdf

[RLCarter]

I really need to get back on finishing up my sun visors. One of my favorite evening flights is east bound over to South Padre Island which puts the return flight into the setting sun, for me it’s a safety item and I’m not worried about it

[A64Pilot]

So far as removing something if control oscillations occur, maybe, if your lucky.

The Test pilot is a friend of mine, it’s was a test to VD, velocity dive speed. The elevator got into flutter, an oscillation. The accident was recreated in a wind tunnel, from the onset to total destruction of the empennage was less than 1 sec. .7 if I remember correctly.

The aircraft had been tested to VD I believe 7 times, successfully with no problems, what was different this time was the test pilot had run the trim to full down so that he didn’t have to hold excessive force on the controls, the test was a 1” “pulse” of the elevator, as soon as the pulse was accomplished the tail came apart, Ralph got out. He said his feet were in the corn when the chute opened, the flutter Engineer that was in the aircraft, didn’t.

There is more this story of course, 

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/2731

Edited March 10, 2021 by A64Pilot

[carusoam]

Somebody bent a Mooney wing before...

We haven’t seen a Mooney shed parts yet...

Certification testing, and a single door, that has wind forces holding it near closed... that’s gonna be a tough exit...

Best regards,

-a-

[Schllc]

Try the static cling window film. Its$26 from autozone, fold away easily when not needed, doesn’t ever get in the way and blocks bright spots much more effectively. 
I use three pieces around 12x16. You can double or triple them too.  
Even the tiny factory ones are always in the way in my plane. 

[John Mininger]

Another very satisfied Don Muncy customer!

You followed my intent for an owner produced part precisely.  

Well done Don! Thank you.

John

 

[John Mininger]

And for what you feel it's worth, here a link to a piece on owner produced parts by Mike Busch from about 10 years ago:

EAA_2011-08_owner-produced-parts.pdf (savvyaviation.com)

John

[M20F-1968]

On 3/4/2021 at 9:01 PM, PT20J said:

I have installed Rosens on a 1978 and 1994 M20J. They fit, but they are large and don't tuck away neatly. I like the large size because they block more sun. But, it would be very easy to cut down the plastic part to make them stow better if desired. I should think this would apply to any Mooney model, but you could also call Rosen directly to find out what the exact issues were with later models. Another option might be to see if @DonMuncy can make you a set. I hear his are very nice.

I have a retrofitted interior from 1998 Ovation  installed in my 1968 F model.   I have the six switch panel in the overhead and  considered cutting down the Rosen

sun visors  but realized that they can be stowed against the ceiling with the arm longitudinal to the long axis of the airplane.   The Rosen arm bracket  extends  along the  edge of the roof near the passenger door,  and near the pilot window on the pilot side.   They are out of the way  and still gain the benefit of the larger  sun visor.

John Breda