News on Insurance

[carusoam]

1 minute ago, RobertGary1 said:

I wonder if there is actuary evidence that supports the higher rates. 

We would have to ask our insurance guy and our statistics professor... but, the number of pilots, over 80, flying Mooneys is pretty tiny...

Of that small group, none have had any accidents...

So... the bigger problem is the insurance companies have no data... without data, they have fear... fear of not knowing how to price this awesome group of flyers...

Best regards,

-a-

[GeeBee]

Considering that at 80 you are 1.2 years past the average "good until date" on your label in 2020, yeah I think there is actuary evidence.

 

[whiskytango]

I just has an interesting discussion with AssuredPartners.  I got a renewal quote, and was pleasantly surprised that it was only 14% higher than last year.  I was expecting much worse, based on my age (74) and the reduction in annual flying hours since I retired.  When I called to bind coverage, the agent said that I was fortunate to be flying an M20-K model Mooney.  She that that based on 4 gear-up claims last year, pilots flying M20-E models are going to see premium increases of up to 80% from AssuredPartners!  

We must take extra care to stop making gear-up landings.  The insurance carriers are clearly counting every one in setting rates.  Also, if you have an E-model, you probably should not expect AssuredPartners to give you your lowest rate quote.  

[KLRDMD]

11 minutes ago, whiskytango said:

We must take extra care to stop making gear-up landings.  The insurance carriers are clearly counting every one in setting rates. 

Yet people continue to insist on doing touch and goes in complex airplanes and continue to have gear up landings during those maneuvers 

[MikeOH]

11 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

Yet people continue to insist on doing touch and goes in complex airplanes and continue to have gear up landings during those maneuvers 

As one who brazenly, and unashamedly, does T&Gs (did three today, in fact), I'd be interested in your data set that shows pilots doing T&Gs account for a higher percentage of gear-ups than 'ordinary' landings.

[carusoam]

15 hours ago, GeeBee said:

Considering that at 80 you are 1.2 years past the average "good until date" on your label in 2020, yeah I think there is actuary evidence.

 

Fortunately, that number doesn’t apply to Mooney pilots....

Mooney pilots don’t fit the average mold...

Eat well... but don’t over eat...

Exercise well... but don’t over exercise...

Sleep well... but don’t oversleep(?)

-a-

[KLRDMD]

24 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

As one who brazenly, and unashamedly, does T&Gs (did three today, in fact), I'd be interested in your data set that shows pilots doing T&Gs account for a higher percentage of gear-ups than 'ordinary' landings.

When I taught in the Mooney PPP and when I took the Beech PPP, both absolutely would not allow touch and goes during the course. What have they learned in their many thousands of hours instructing in these airplanes that the average pilot doesn't know?

For a rental training airplane, literally paying by the minute, it makes sense to do touch and goes. For a privately owned complex airplane, is the 50¢ - $1.00 in fuel savings by doing a touch and go versus a full stop taxi back really worth a potential $25,000 - $100,000 mistake?

My entire life is about a risk-benefit analysis. What's the risk of doing a touch and go in a privately owned complex airplane? What's the benefit?

Insurance rates are rising, especially for Mooneys (and reportedly especially for "E" model Mooneys) and a large part of that is due to gear up landings. Why not do anything reasonable to prevent that???

[MikeOH]

3 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

When I taught in the Mooney PPP and when I took the Beech PPP, both absolutely would not allow touch and goes during the course. What have they learned in their many thousands of hours instructing in these airplanes that the average pilot doesn't know?

For a rental training airplane, literally paying by the minute, it makes sense to do touch and goes. For a privately owned complex airplane, is the 50¢ - $1.00 in fuel savings by doing a touch and go versus a full stop taxi back really worth a potential $25,000 - $100,000 mistake?

My entire life is about a risk-benefit analysis. What's the risk of doing a touch and go in a privately owned complex airplane? What's the benefit?

Insurance rates are rising, especially for Mooneys (and reportedly especially for "E" model Mooneys) and a large part of that is due to gear up landings. Why not do anything reasonable to prevent that???

Didn't see any actual data in your argument.  Where is the data showing gear-ups are more likely when doing T&Gs and that our HUGE insurance increases are due to gear-ups?  If the increases are due to gear-ups, I'm interested in what CHANGED versus prior years.

I'm failing to see the logic in how taxi backs are okay, but T&Gs are not, when it comes to gear ups.  If I forget to put the gear down, I'm NOT going to be taxiing back

Finally, the appeal to "my entire life is about risk-benefit" "lowering risk" has no end...why fly small GA at all?  EVERY one of us is taking more risk just by participating in GA.  Perhaps you NEED GA for business so accept that risk.  I fly for fun, it is NOT an activity that I can justify by anything other than enjoyment.  I ENJOY practicing my landings.  By your "life risk/benefit" analysis why should anyone fly for pleasure knowing it's riskier than not?

[carusoam]

Speaking of logic... and actuarial data...

Are the 80year old pilots at a higher risk of a GU landing..?

Or are there other accidents that are really the driving force of such actions by the insurance companies..?

MS has lost too many pilots over the years... most were a lot younger than 80...

Keep in mind... I consider 10years to be a lot...   (for reference)

 

Its really odd that the insurance companies are showing that they are raising your rates because somebody else did something bad...

Mike wants to do TnGs... yay! All the power to him... he has the right to fly the plane in accordance with its POH...

TnGs aren’t prohibited...

 

Of course, anyone that is a flight instructor getting to witness how everyone else flys... where the mistakes happen, and why they happen... doesn’t need actuarial data...

The fun part of distraction... some CFIs have it worked out to a science...

Some students have learned... when the CFI offers up a distraction... he is usually adjusting something or turning something on or off...

Depending on the time of day, day of the year, angle of the sun... amount of sleep, food, wellness....  we are all, more or less, capable of being distracted...

 

Do a few laps around the pattern... you will recognize when you have made a mistake... why did it happen?

When your brain is working perfectly, distractions occur less often... 

Doing TnGs puts a bunch of repetitive actions close together in a single time frame... I can easily remember putting the gear down... was it three minutes ago or six?  This repetitive action is a measurable way to increase vulnerability for a GU landing...

For other goofy, it won’t happen to me, challenges... find the guys that have run out of fuel... the repairs for that are typically much higher than a GU landing.

I’m not a big fan of the insurance companies pitting one pilot against the others...

One of the guys that ran out of fuel doesn’t come back here any longer...

Shaming a pilot until he goes underground... 

 

The whole carrot and stick thing... the car insurance guys are using carrots... the airplane insurance companies are using the stick and shaming...

Pilots aren’t the ordinary consumer... we don’t get the protection that a home buyer or car buyer usually gets...

Would you give up the TnGs for a small discount off your insurance?  

More PP thoughts only...

Best regards,

-a-

[larrynimmo]

I have owned my plane for almost 4 years now ...and 600+ hours.  In training I did a lot of touch and go’s and never had an issue as the procedures are very specific and gear goes down opposite the numbers downwind.  The only time I had an issue was flying at night...extending way out from the pattern and then preparing to land....pulled back the throttle and “beep...beep...beep...beep”...it only took me about a second to recognize I made a major omission...put the gear down and avoided becoming a statistic...I regularly verify the beep so that I know that it works...soon I will be adding the ground distance radar with call-outs as an extra measure of safety.

[flyingchump]

On 12/15/2020 at 3:56 PM, ragedracer1977 said:

Oh... My AOPA/assured partners experience has been nothing but bad.  I sold my C model and bought a twin.  I bought the twin beginning of July.  Same day my insurance expired on the Mooney. I tried for 3 weeks to get a quote for changing aircraft from AOPA/AP.  My "broker" with them was completely unresponsive, so I went with another broker.

AOPA finally called me back the day the before the policy expired.  I told the "broker" I didn't have time to deal with an unresponsive company, I had gone with someone else, and they needed to not renew my policy. 

2 months later I start getting phone calls that I'm late on my bill.  The bi$@h had renewed it anyway. I never signed anything.  We've been arguing about it for 3 months.  They finally came back and said they would prorate it to when the new guy bought the Mooney.  However, they would only base that on the date it shows as registered on the FAA website.  Which is the date they processed it, not the date it happened.  They wanted to bill me for an extra 45ish days.  

I've now sent them a bill of sale and the declaration page of the new owners policy showing its been effective since July, just a few days after my original expiration date.

In other words, we're STILL arguing about this almost 6 months later.  I'll never use them again, they're inept and unresponsive. Imagine if I had a claim???

My new broker is a pilot, and his hangar is just a few rows over from mine. He can't hide from me.  

I got to +1 this unfortunately.  I too have Assured partners.  While I'm not going through what you are I will say that the customer service is inexcusable and their accuracy/quality in non-existent.  I have never spoken to or emailed the same person twice...  I sign forms and email them to the same person who requested them.  A month later, some ELSE emails me telling me my police will be cancelled if I don't send the forms.  I F-ing did already!  I give them proof and they go silent for a while, not even a thank you or confirmation email.  Same thing repeats another month later.   Then, after having the policy in place for 4 months, they send me the entire police to "verify" my information is correct...  Why are you verifying 5 months into the policy???  Well, I read the entire policy and found that my tail number was wrong, the aircraft model was wrong, the airport based at was wrong... I have the original signed policy and all this information is correct.  How do they NOW have all the incorrect information AFTER the policy is in place?

I'm flying really cautiously this year because I cant imagine how bad filing a claim would be with these people.  I'll be shopping around after my current policy ends.

I hope others are having better luck.

[aviatoreb]

On 12/15/2020 at 11:17 PM, carusoam said:

We would have to ask our insurance guy and our statistics professor... but, the number of pilots, over 80, flying Mooneys is pretty tiny...

Of that small group, none have had any accidents...

So... the bigger problem is the insurance companies have no data... without data, they have fear... fear of not knowing how to price this awesome group of flyers...

Best regards,

-a-

I'm no statistics professor, but ... I play on on tv.  I've taught statistics.  Actually this last semester all of my teaching was on tv...er...zoom.  Next semester too.  Anyway were you talking about me?  Im a math prof, sometimes people say data science sometimes machine learning.  Stats is its own thing too but not what I would call myself.  And actuarial sciences is its own thing and there are profs of actuarial science - which is a topic of applied probability and statistics, applied to develop risk management in a business setting.  Its a combination applied degree to business.  My father in law btw was a president of a mo

Anyway, I will try and say something mathy.

P(expensive incident)    probability of an incident across the population. (For now lets say EI)

P(EI | person's experience is low). (a conditional prob ability statement you read as probability of expensive incident "given" persons' experience is low).

P( EI | person's experience is low, person is young ) (read that comma as an "and" so this says probability of EI given experience low and person young).

P( nutty attitude | person is young) < P(nutty attitude | person is old).  (just guessing - I have no data - these are questions to query).

P( poor skills | low experience).

P( low experience | person is young ) < P( low experience | person is old ) (again just guessing - but I would guess that 80 year population is mostly well "seasoned" pilots rather than 80 year old freshly minted 40 hour pilots);

P( diminishing skills | person is young) < P(diminishing skills | person is old ) (...I bet - without data - old people forget stuff more likely at some point...what were we talking about again?)

P( expensive incident | age )= P(incident | skills) P(skills | age)  + P(incident | bad attitudes ) P( bad attitudes | age) (assuming independence).

and other factors accordingly, I guess would need to be broken up into appropriate conditional probability statements, and that doesn't say anything about if there are data sets that are sufficiently rich to help decide questions.  I dont know anything about that.  I imagine they must already break it up into dozens of factors.

Folklore is that most old pilots are wise and experienced, but eventually with age, skills and thinking speed decrease and will overwhelm the former.  But at least for a time, wisdom and experience prevails over fast reactions and quick thinking of young, perhaps less experienced and/or perhaps too bold young pilots.

 

[aviatoreb]

This weekend I submitted my annual pilot hours to my insurance agent for my annual renewal and I am bracing for an increase as I see these threads.  And my hours are way way down this year since I didn't fly anywhere really due to covid - no place to go.  All my mission oriented and business trips cancelled.  I have flown regularly in short flights around the local skies but that doesn't add up to much hours.