Landing Height System for Mooney

[KLRDMD]

I dropped mine off at 6AM today. It is almost 4PM and not done yet and likely will not be done today. I wonder how many hours I'll be billed for . . .

[KLRDMD]

21 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

I dropped mine off at 6AM today. It is almost 4PM and not done yet and likely will not be done today. I wonder how many hours I'll be billed for . . .

Got it back today and it works as advertised. I was billed for more hours than expected but maybe that was what was required.

[Oscar Avalle]

Got mine too and if works great! One little issue I flew into a cloud and it started to announce 10 feet…


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[aviatoreb]

On 6/23/2021 at 4:01 PM, KLRDMD said:

Got it back today and it works as advertised. I was billed for more hours than expected but maybe that was what was required.

How many were you billed?

[JohnB]

On 6/13/2021 at 10:32 AM, Microkit said:

A 32 hrs quote is very high, as everyone else mentioned.

A Piper Malibu (Pressurized) told us he was charged 10 shop hours, mainly because of the procedure to penetrate a pressurized vessel.

You don't need an avionics shop to insert a pin into an audio channel at the back of the intercom unit; an A&P should be able to do that.  The FAA wants a radio endorsed mechanic for equipment that “transmit” such as COM radio.

Ok I am having the hardest time getting my system installed. All of the mechanics I have spoken with look at the instructions and say they are unable as it connects to an audio channel and needs to be done by an avionics shop.  ( already told to them what you said it about a non communicating channel to the outside world not requiring a avionics shop, but they won't go for that one) And the avionics shops say it will take a huge number of hours or needs to be purchased by them in order for them to install.  I was going to see if a mechanic can install it but not connect it to the audio, then hire an avionics shop to connect it, but im guessing they wont sign off on a device they didn't install. Oy!

Edited July 2, 2021 by JohnB

[Microkit]

Just now, JohnB said:

Ok I am having the hardest time getting my system installed. All of the mechanics I have spoken with look at the instructions and say they are unable as it connects to an audio channel and needs to be done by an avionics shop. And the avionics shops say it will take a huge number of hours or needs to be purchased by them in order for them to install.  I was going to see if a mechanic can install it but not connect it to the audio, then hire an avionics shop to connect it, but im guessing they wont sign off on a device they didn't install. Oy!

The audio panel is not a transmitter such as a transponder or a radio.  Secondly, they are not repairing anything inside the unit; adding a pin to the tray connector in the back without removing the tray or other wires does not need an avionics shop; any A&P should be able to do it.  Per our approval; the entire installation including the audio hookup, wiring and access panel cut-out is considered a minor alteration.

Hoping someone here who is near you or at least within a reasonable flying distance can PM you with the name of their installer.   

 

[bradp]

14 hours ago, JohnB said:

Ok I am having the hardest time getting my system installed. All of the mechanics I have spoken with look at the instructions and say they are unable as it connects to an audio channel and needs to be done by an avionics shop.  ( already told to them what you said it about a non communicating channel to the outside world not requiring a avionics shop, but they won't go for that one) And the avionics shops say it will take a huge number of hours or needs to be purchased by them in order for them to install.  I was going to see if a mechanic can install it but not connect it to the audio, then hire an avionics shop to connect it, but im guessing they wont sign off on a device they didn't install. Oy!

@JohnB where are you located? What audio panel do you have? I bet you’ll get side eye looks if it’s a KMA-20 or KMA-24 because nobody in their right mind wants to make an interconnect with those.  If it’s a PMA >7000 or a Garmin this is *very* *very* straightforward. Probably the simplest “avionics” installation I’ve done. 

I just re-did my wiring and ground to take out a ground loop that I created.  So I’ve effectively done this installation twice.  It’s really simple and straightforward. 

[JohnB]

17 hours ago, Microkit said:

The audio panel is not a transmitter such as a transponder or a radio.  Secondly, they are not repairing anything inside the unit; adding a pin to the tray connector in the back without removing the tray or other wires does not need an avionics shop; any A&P should be able to do it.  Per our approval; the entire installation including the audio hookup, wiring and access panel cut-out is considered a minor alteration.

Hoping someone here who is near you or at least within a reasonable flying distance can PM you with the name of their installer.   

 

Thanks I sent another installer the above message and they're willing to do it. Will need the STC number ill PM you.

 

For those of you who put a switch and a circuit breaker in (which I want as well) where did you get that from? Is there a switch and circuit breaker suggested by Microkit?  If anyone has a link or company that sells a switch and circuit breaker suitable for this device, that would be helpful! Thanks everyone!

[donkaye]

16 minutes ago, JohnB said:

Thanks I sent another installer the above message and they're willing to do it. Will need the STC number ill PM you.

 

For those of you who put a switch and a circuit breaker in (which I want as well) where did you get that from? Is there a switch and circuit breaker suggested by Microkit?  If anyone has a link or company that sells a switch and circuit breaker suitable for this device, that would be helpful! Thanks everyone!

I used the circuit breaker that had been the Trim Switch circuit breaker when I had the KFC 150.  We added a resistor to bring the max current down to 1 amp.  I had an empty switch that had been used to switch inputs when I had the ESI 500 for the other switch.

[Warren]

23 hours ago, JohnB said:

Ok I am having the hardest time getting my system installed. All of the mechanics I have spoken with look at the instructions and say they are unable as it connects to an audio channel and needs to be done by an avionics shop.  ( already told to them what you said it about a non communicating channel to the outside world not requiring a avionics shop, but they won't go for that one) And the avionics shops say it will take a huge number of hours or needs to be purchased by them in order for them to install.  I was going to see if a mechanic can install it but not connect it to the audio, then hire an avionics shop to connect it, but im guessing they wont sign off on a device they didn't install. Oy!

@JohnBFor a breaker, you can add a pull type breaker to your panel, buy a simple toggle switch breaker, or try to find a Mooney switch (ETA) breaker and adapt as Don did.  All are reasonable options and not that hard to install.  Aircraft Spruce carries the first two.  ETA - good luck finding one.

Audio panel depends heavily on what panel you have and what you currently have connected.  If there is an open channel, no problem - like and old DME, ADF or AUX channel.

Cutting the wing panel neatly is a bit of a project and takes time to do well.

8 hours should be lots for almost any application - maybe quicker if things go well.

[Blue on Top]

1 hour ago, Warren said:

@Microkit  As a NORSEE item, I am curious why the installation needs an STC.  How is the FAA making you do this?  Thanks, Ron

 

 

[bradp]

21 hours ago, JohnB said:

Thanks I sent another installer the above message and they're willing to do it. Will need the STC number ill PM you.

 

For those of you who put a switch and a circuit breaker in (which I want as well) where did you get that from? Is there a switch and circuit breaker suggested by Microkit?  If anyone has a link or company that sells a switch and circuit breaker suitable for this device, that would be helpful! Thanks everyone!

John no STC is required for this item.  It’s a NORSEE device.  Therefore it’s a minor modification.  You can forward this document to your installer.  An IA is not required to fill out a 337 for this item; simple logbook entry will suffice. 
 

https://landingheight.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/LHS_NORSEE_Dec_9.pdf

 

[KLRDMD]

On 7/2/2021 at 10:23 AM, bradp said:

What audio panel do you have? I bet you’ll get side eye looks if it’s a KMA-20 or KMA-24 because nobody in their right mind wants to make an interconnect with those. 

I have a KMA24 audio panel and had no issues getting it installed 

[bradp]

21 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

I have a KMA24 audio panel and had no issues getting it installed 

At least it’s pins with the 24 and not literally globs of solder like my old 20 was. 

[JohnB]

On 7/2/2021 at 7:40 PM, Warren said:

@JohnBFor a breaker, you can add a pull type breaker to your panel, buy a simple toggle switch breaker, or try to find a Mooney switch (ETA) breaker and adapt as Don did.  All are reasonable options and not that hard to install.  Aircraft Spruce carries the first two.  ETA - good luck finding one.

Audio panel depends heavily on what panel you have and what you currently have connected.  If there is an open channel, no problem - like and old DME, ADF or AUX channel.

Cutting the wing panel neatly is a bit of a project and takes time to do well.

8 hours should be lots for almost any application - maybe quicker if things go well.

Warren, Don, Hugely helpful! I would really like the Tyco circuit breaker/ combined switch type, that would be wonderful. @MicrokitWhat amperage is appropriate for your landing system? I was hoping that there was a recommended switch/circuit breaker but I guess that would make it more difficult to get approved as a minor alteration if the switch/ breaker also had to be approved.

 Looking at AC spruce, have to see if it can be installed in my aircraft. Im going in the next few days to see if @donkaye's suggestion will work,  if I have any unused switches from upgrades, but I think I re tasked most if not all of my existing Mooney switches to other things, but Ill check. Thanks everyone. really helpful.

[rbp]

I'm curious if anyone who has this installed also has the Garmin GI-260 AOA indicator. I'm adding both in my panel upgrade.

[Microkit]

No STC, It's a NORSEE so minor alteration.  Form 337 is not required.  The installation of a circuit breaker does not require further FAA approval if the circuit breaker is already certified and compatible with the busbar for the airplane make/model; this is selected and decided by the installer.

If a “Switched” audio input used; such as ADF, COM3, NAV2, etc., which gives a button or switch already on the audio panel to enable/disable audio on-demand; then a dedicated circuit breaker is not required; the power can be shared by any non-essential devices, such as cig lighter or internal lighting not used for night; and so on.    

Even if a “Switched” audio input is not available; then a standard toggle switch can be added, and this also eliminates the need for a dedicated circuit breaker.  If installing a circuit breaker; use a 1A one.  Power consumption is < 200mA on 12V systems.

 

[JohnB]

@Microkit, I am having a difficult time getting this device installed and getting expensive. Not as simple as described for a mechanic, to just plug in to an unused port without affecting something else in an advanced audio panel. Question, will this device plug into the cabin speakers instead of an audio channel? At this point, I don’t mind if it doesn’t play through my headset, and I might prefer that anyway, as I will have a fuse and switch. 

[Microkit]

10 hours ago, JohnB said:

@Microkit, I am having a difficult time getting this device installed and getting expensive. Not as simple as described for a mechanic, to just plug in to an unused port without affecting something else in an advanced audio panel. Question, will this device plug into the cabin speakers instead of an audio channel? At this point, I don’t mind if it doesn’t play through my headset, and I might prefer that anyway, as I will have a fuse and switch. 

 

Sorry you are having a hard time installing the LHS.   Is the glareshield on your make/model not removable?    Guessing the issue is that it's hard to reach the back of your audio panel without pulling other equipment.

Do you have a music input?  Like the one that takes a 3.5 mm standard audio jack?  You can connect the LHS Blue to the center pin on the attached jack and insert it into either headset directly if it has an input or audio panel music input.  

The unit can also connect directly to standard speaker two wires speakers (now both LHS wires need to be used).  

There are also options for high output battery powered standalone speakers that accept standard audio Jack as well.

[JohnB]

Thanks @Microkit that makes it easier with more options for audio as the install instructions have com 3 listed. Getting there! 

[dfurst]

@Microkit Thank you!  I had mine installed during annual.  Still waiting for the bill to see how much it cost.  Will post when I get it.

Let me say the LHS is fantastic.  I did not fly for 2 months (simple annual, no problems!! but that is another story) so I was a little nervous when I went out for my first flight yesterday.  A little background.  This is my third Mooney.  Started with a C model which I could land on a dime.  Moved to a K model.  By the end of the first year I could put it down anywhere.  A year ago I bought an Ovation.  Given my schedule I only put 50 hours on it.  I had a lot of trouble with the landings.  Never could get that last few feet right.  Flare to low, flying it on the runway.  Flare too high, dropping it.  Never pretty.  I was getting better the summer before annual.  

Back to yesterday.  It was a little windy, but within my normal limits.  I almost cancelled anyway given that it had been 2 months but I pressed on.  My home airport runway is 2,440' x 40' with trees at one end and a 20 foot drop to a highway at the other end.  Needless to say, coming with an Ovation, you must be on your numbers and down in first third of runway.  I decided to fly to another nearby airport with 4,470' x 75' runway to practice.  

My first landing was high and hot but when the LHS started talking at 200' and asked for a gear check, I was able to calm things down.  The countdown was great.  I was on speed, on target, hearing the numbers drop.  When I got to 20, I had the right sight out the window and started the flare. by 10' I was in a great position and pulled the power back.  At 5' I was in the perfect attitude and had one of my best landings ever in my Ovation.  Let me say that again, after 2 months of not flying, I had a near perfect landing.  The LHS made that possible.  It also had a calming effect.  I felt I had more time to get the speed and power just right in the flare and take my time getting it on the ground.

Was this a fluke?  I did 2 more patterns at this airport.  Now, I almost never do touch and go's in the Ovation.  First of all we are not allowed to at our home airport, so I don't do too many.  Second of all, even on a 4,000' runway, I find by the time I am down, reconfigured and ready to go I have eaten up a lot of runway.  Not this time.  On both approaches I came in on the numbers, touched down in the first 500' and had plenty of runway left.  Moved flaps to takeoff position, adjusted trim, and firewalled it (slowly).  Took off and did another touch and go.

After 3 landings it was time to head home for the real test.  Approach was good, it was a bit windy on short final.  Coming in over the trees always does strange things to wind but I was focused on the approach end of the runway.  There is a little valley after the trees, before the runway so the LHS was a little confused.  It called out 50 over the trees then 70 then dropped to 30 right before the runway.  I expected this.  Again, the final countdown to 5 was great, and calming.  One of my best landings and home airport ever.  I was off with minimal braking well before the other end.

Sorry for the long post but this tool can really make a difference.  What I wasn't expecting is the calming effect.  It basically makes you feel like you have more time from the approach to the round out to the flare.  For comparison sake, I have just over 1,000 hours, 600+ in Mooneys but only 55 in the Ovation.

Thank you!

To anyone not sure if this is worth it, if you are happy with your landings most of the time, it is a nice to have.  If your landings are all over the place, this is a must have.  Given what we spend on our airplanes, it is a small price to pay (well, let me see what the shop charged to install it).

Picture below installed under right wing, between gear and fuselage 

 

Edited November 4, 2021 by dfurst

[larrynimmo]

The other day I approached my home airport and there was some patchy see through fog from above…(4,000’x 75’)I could see every runway light….as I was landing I was on centerline at 1’ with the plane nose up…then I hit a patch of fog that had no horizontal see through, but completed the landing with confidence, and was out of that patch in a few seconds later.

I would have landed on the numbers(if I had to do it again) but with a system I have learned to trust, I felt safe.  Consider the alternatives…taking to a go around that close to the ground is not without risks.

[Microkit]

@dfurst @larrynimmo  

Thank you for your great feedback and sharing your experience.  We are truly happy that you are satisfied with your purchase and the usefulness of the LHS.  

As it's NORSEE Certified, it truly fits the name; "non required safety enhancement equipment".  Indeed, non required but with emphasis on the "safety enhancement" part. 

Thanks

Nidal

 

[dfurst]

Got the invoice.  9 hours to install.  

Most time consuming was routing wire from wing, through body to back of panel.

Second most time consuming was getting it to work with intercom.  They had to call in their traveling avionics guy and he spent 2 hours getting it to work.

They quoted me 2 days, or 16 hours, so they came in under budge.  Not cheap but $990 plus the cost of the device, still OK in my book.

[larrynimmo]

16 hours ago, dfurst said:

Got the invoice.  9 hours to install.  

Most time consuming was routing wire from wing, through body to back of panel.

Second most time consuming was getting it to work with intercom.  They had to call in their traveling avionics guy and he spent 2 hours getting it to work.

They quoted me 2 days, or 16 hours, so they came in under budge.  Not cheap but $990 plus the cost of the device, still OK in my book.

It is a shame that it took so long…the best time to run the 4 conductor wire is during annual when panels are removed to check condition of frame…I installed mine on copilot side with the seat and the carpet wall removed (following the route of other avionics wires) and then installed a plastic sheathing of 24” where the wire went through natural sheet metal openings (no drilling required and no sharp edges) at this point, the plane can be put back together.

once the wire was pulled, removing and drilling the inspection panel took maybe 10 minutes, and making up the 4 wires to the included connector took another 15 minutes.

what is left is the most challenging part of the install which is to remove the glareshield and fishing and attaching last 3 ft of the wire.  Now you need to hook up 3 wires.  One is a ground….one is for a 12v+ power source…my A&P insisted on a dash mounted fuse holder and power switch which added extra time, but there are many other options.

thst leaves you with one wire to make up…the audio wire…I was lucky because in earlier avionics upgrades I eliminated the DME..and they had clipped the audio wire and put a flag marker on it.  Once that wire is made up, test operation of the system by wi-finishing your phone, and re-install glare shield.

almost any avionics shop or A&P are more than happy if you run your own wire…they don’t want to do that…just let them direct you and have them do the connections 

Edited November 6, 2021 by larrynimmo
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