Mooney Bravo Project

[Hector]

 
 This Bravo has been sitting in the bulk hangar at my airport since before I moved there. For all accounts it’s been in the hangar for 15 years and was last flown in 2006 after all the cylinders were replaced. Supposedly the owners flew it for 10 hours or so after cylinder replacement then parked it and has not flown again. It’s a 1991 M20M. The oil looks clean, prop turns, fuel tanks are bone dry but the sealant looked good., interior is in very nice shape but the radios are 1990 vintage (a full King stack and very old Garmin GPS). The owner lost all the logbooks. The last person to maintain it says he returned the logbooks but the owner does not have them. Paint is in very good shape but years of dirt/dust looks like it will clean up nice. Needless to say, HUGE risk and should probably run, BUT, there is a price point at which this could make a easonable project airplane. What that price point is, is the real question

[Niko182]

37 minutes ago, Hector said:

 
 This Bravo has been sitting in the bulk hangar at my airport since before I moved there. For all accounts it’s been in the hangar for 15 years and was last flown in 2006 after all the cylinders were replaced. Supposedly the owners flew it for 10 hours or so after cylinder replacement then parked it and has not flown again. It’s a 1991 M20M. The oil looks clean, prop turns, fuel tanks are bone dry but the sealant looked good., interior is in very nice shape but the radios are 1990 vintage (a full King stack and very old Garmin GPS). The owner lost all the logbooks. The last person to maintain it says he returned the logbooks but the owner does not have them. Paint is in very good shape but years of dirt/dust looks like it will clean up nice. Needless to say, HUGE risk and should probably run, BUT, there is a price point at which this could make a easonable project airplane. What that price point is, is the real question

Just know if you have to overhaul that engine, its about 75k. Now add to the fact that you dont have any logs whatsoever, and you lose another chunk of its value. This thing is going to have to be really cheap for it to be worthwhile. Id say under 50k. It could be a great aircraft, but it could be a ticking time bomb, possibly requiring a very very very large sum of money to keep it airworthy.

0 logs what so ever makes it very hard to sell if you cant afford the project in the end.

[Guest]

It’s likely worth what you could get if you parted it out, which would be a real shame. Is there any way to see how many hours are on the Hobbs meter?

Clarence

 

[Davidv]

8 hours ago, Hector said:

 
 This Bravo has been sitting in the bulk hangar at my airport since before I moved there. For all accounts it’s been in the hangar for 15 years and was last flown in 2006 after all the cylinders were replaced. Supposedly the owners flew it for 10 hours or so after cylinder replacement then parked it and has not flown again. It’s a 1991 M20M. The oil looks clean, prop turns, fuel tanks are bone dry but the sealant looked good., interior is in very nice shape but the radios are 1990 vintage (a full King stack and very old Garmin GPS). The owner lost all the logbooks. The last person to maintain it says he returned the logbooks but the owner does not have them. Paint is in very good shape but years of dirt/dust looks like it will clean up nice. Needless to say, HUGE risk and should probably run, BUT, there is a price point at which this could make a easonable project airplane. What that price point is, is the real question

And you’re in Jacksonville? If it were sitting some where like Vegas or the California desert I’d be a little more enthusiastic about the project but I’m assuming any exposed metal has a decent amount of rust? While rust on its own not bad, it makes you wonder about other corrosion if not treated.  Btw, since it’s my vintage (and happens to be same color scheme), Hobbs is in the left side of the passenger foot well if you haven’t seen it yet.

 

[Hector]

It does not look like it from the pics but the windows are so dirty it was hard to read the Hobbs (doors are locked). I’ll try again this weekend. As far as corrosion is concerned it did have some surface corrosion on the right side flap upper skin and right side aileron upper skin, but it looked like it would clean up (no pitting or intergranular that I can see). Everywhere else I looked it appeared clean. The wheel wells and spar sections I could get to looked great with the paint in excellent shape. No fuel stains. I think the biggest gamble is that engine and prop. The missing logs are also a big problem.

 

 

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[Davidv]

4 minutes ago, Hector said:

It does not look like it from the pics but the windows are so dirty it was hard to read the Hobbs (doors are locked). I’ll try again this weekend. As far as corrosion is concerned it did have some surface corrosion on the right side flap upper skin and right side aileron upper skin, but it looked like it would clean up (no pitting or intergranular that I can see). Everywhere else I looked it appeared clean. The wheel wells and spar sections I could get to looked great with the paint in excellent shape. No fuel stains. I think the biggest gamble is that engine and prop. The missing logs are also a big problem.

 

 

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Ah ok, yes at least you know what all those things cost if it comes back with no corrosion.  You’ll need to get inside the plane to read the Hobbs.  Pretty much the only way is to lay on your stomach head first into the passenger foot well with a flashlight (unless you’re an Olympic gymnast and can bend over in the seat to see it).

[Ragsf15e]

Nobody’s worried about the $10-15k for resealing both fuel tanks?  Also the time/travel involved to get it somewhere that does it?  Maybe the 90s models had better sealant, but dry for a lot of years doesn’t bode well...

So, engine, tanks, missing logs, avionics (adsb)... sadly, Doc is probably right about the price point.

[Steve Dawson]

You don't say but is the aircraft actually for sale or are you just asking out of curiosity? There's been aircraft where the owner has lost interest or their medical but keep paying hangar or tie-down fees hoping that one day they'll be able to fly again. Or they figure the aircraft is worth when they bought it, or they don't want the wife to know how much money they have in the aircraft.  

[LANCECASPER]

14 hours ago, Hector said:

 
 This Bravo has been sitting in the bulk hangar at my airport since before I moved there. For all accounts it’s been in the hangar for 15 years and was last flown in 2006 after all the cylinders were replaced. Supposedly the owners flew it for 10 hours or so after cylinder replacement then parked it and has not flown again. It’s a 1991 M20M. The oil looks clean, prop turns, fuel tanks are bone dry but the sealant looked good., interior is in very nice shape but the radios are 1990 vintage (a full King stack and very old Garmin GPS). The owner lost all the logbooks. The last person to maintain it says he returned the logbooks but the owner does not have them. Paint is in very good shape but years of dirt/dust looks like it will clean up nice. Needless to say, HUGE risk and should probably run, BUT, there is a price point at which this could make a easonable project airplane. What that price point is, is the real question

 

 

Been there . .  done that .. . sorta

 

[Bravoman]

3 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

 

 

Been there . .  done that .. . sorta

 

This one has been sitting a lot longer than yours was. If kept in a tight and dry hangar at Herlong (somewhat inland) the airframe shouldn’t be too bad.

[Hector]

You don't say but is the aircraft actually for sale or are you just asking out of curiosity? There's been aircraft where the owner has lost interest or their medical but keep paying hangar or tie-down fees hoping that one day they'll be able to fly again. Or they figure the aircraft is worth when they bought it, or they don't want the wife to know how much money they have in the aircraft.  

Yes, my hangar neighbor spoke to the owner and the owner would not give him a price but instead asked him to make an offer. Some information was exchanged and that’s how we found out about the logbooks. A few years back someone approached him and the owner asked for $150K but obviously the aircraft is no longer worth anywhere near that. What the aircraft is worth now is the question. I was guessing somewhere in the 70k range but still a gamble at that price. I think the airframe is fine, the wing tanks (extended range) are a question mark but I think they are probably ok. Engine/turbo/prop is the big question and of course the missing logs.


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[Rusty Pilot]

What is the value of missing logs?  As a rule of thumb, I always figured 50% of the aircraft value.

 

[takair]

Any chance the logs are sitting in the baggage area or a nearby locked cabinet?  

[ArtVandelay]

I would pull the top spark plug, borescope it, if it’s clean with no rust the engine might be in good condition. Pull the battery panel, if no rust on the interior, then I would consider it. You’ll probably need to invest $100,000 (annual, avionics, etc). Without logbooks, no matter how nice you make it, you’ll take a major resale hit.
A ballpark offer would be $50,000 upper limit, so do you think you could sell it for $150,000 to get your money back out of it?
I’m just a PP and don’t have the expertise or experience, so I would seek out opinions of others with experience doing this.

[LANCECASPER]

A place to start might be to go on the FAA website and order all of the documents (337, etc) for the N-number. AeroSpace reports can also do it and you I’ll have it within 24 hours. This should show any damage history that “missing logs” don’t.

[Parker_Woodruff]

I’d pay what the engine core is worth plus $20-25K if the logbooks could be found. Wouldn’t chance it on flying with that engine. 

[Boilermonkey]

1 hour ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

I’d pay what the engine core is worth plus $20-25K if the logbooks could be found. Wouldn’t chance it on flying with that engine. 

Exactly what I would propose.  That way if you needed to part it out, you could get your investment back.  If you end up getting an airplane out of it...that's upside.   Given the lack of logs consider the cost of needing to redo all the ADs.

[Davidv]

1 hour ago, Boilermonkey said:

Exactly what I would propose.  That way if you needed to part it out, you could get your investment back.  If you end up getting an airplane out of it...that's upside.   Given the lack of logs consider the cost of needing to redo all the ADs.

Having a TLS to part out right now would definitely have some value.  I believe the last one was the aircraft that crashed in Chandler.  BA’s part sales sold through a ton of stuff on that aircraft. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Boilermonkey said:

Exactly what I would propose.  That way if you needed to part it out, you could get your investment back.  If you end up getting an airplane out of it...that's upside.   Given the lack of logs consider the cost of needing to redo all the ADs.

At worst a few dozen AD’s to investigate, a few hours at most.

Clarence

[Ron McBride]

Mooney should bye it, update it, zero time it and sell it.

 

[Hector]

Any chance the logs are sitting in the baggage area or a nearby locked cabinet?  

Unfortunately no (I did look at the baggage area through the window and it was empty). Interestingly enough, the mechanic who apparently lost the logs (according to the owner) called the owner a few years later to see if he was interested in selling the airplane. Makes me wonder if the mechanic “found” the logs and thought he could get the airplane dirt cheap.


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[Hector]

I would pull the top spark plug, borescope it, if it’s clean with no rust the engine might be in good condition. Pull the battery panel, if no rust on the interior, then I would consider it. You’ll probably need to invest $100,000 (annual, avionics, etc). Without logbooks, no matter how nice you make it, you’ll take a major resale hit.
A ballpark offer would be $50,000 upper limit, so do you think you could sell it for $150,000 to get your money back out of it?
I’m just a PP and don’t have the expertise or experience, so I would seek out opinions of others with experience doing this.

Exactly, this is what I keep thinking over and over. But if I was going to make this my forever airplane probably not as much of a concern and by the time a sell it hopefully 20+ years from now the logs will not be as much of an issue given the 20 year track record. I would still take a hit, but less than now.


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[Niko182]

2 hours ago, Davidv said:

Having a TLS to part out right now would definitely have some value.  I believe the last one was the aircraft that crashed in Chandler.  BA’s part sales sold through a ton of stuff on that aircraft. 

Those 2 front seats are like 6k alone.

[Tim Jodice]

What is required to make an airplane airworthy that has no log books?

[ArtVandelay]

Mooney should bye it, update it, zero time it and sell it.
 

They couldn’t sell it for what they invested, which includes the liability, which I would not be surprised to be $100,000 alone.