Decision Time Mooney M20 C versus E versus Grumman Tiger

[Pilot boy]

Just now, carusoam said:

Tigers all get the funny decal on their tail... it must have faded in the first few years from UV attack...

The coolest engine available is the IO360 with an updated prop... either an MT or TopProp...

Don’t forget the engine monitor...

 

The stubby wings of the Grumman family makes the plane a bit less stable... check the Vso stall speed... short wings typically increase the stall speed with that....

By design, the stall speed of certificated GA planes are pretty close together... Short body Mooneys are around the 58mias range...

Long body Mooneys are around the 58kias range...  MGTW and flaps down for fair comparison...

I briefly did homework comparing a C172, P150, GA1A....  The Piper was in the lead...

Fly in an M20C, that homework assignment never gets finished... 

I did that three Mooney owners ago... three shutdowns ago...

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

The good news is the E model definitely has an engine monitor.  The owner told me that cost a bit to install and is extremely helpful.  I think it measure exact fuel flow and usage as well which is pretty cool.

[Ross Taylor]

That sounds like a nice E at a very reasonable price. We love ours.

[carusoam]

VFR pilots have two challenges...

• Running into IMC.... and not successfully turning around...  (some people only need about 1/2 hour under a hood to train for a good 180... Others may take some time getting used to the hood...) hood =simulated cloud...
• Running out of fuel.... and not successfully landing...

A FF / totalizer is a great instrument to help keep the fuel issue at bay... comfort level goes up greatly when you have one...

Updated FL sensors are a bonus if you have a decent engine monitor.... (digital display required) 

 

As you gain experience... you will recognize that the tools are only half the battle...

IFR pilots aren’t completely immune to the VFR challenges... but they get two more...

• Running into thunderstorms in IMC...
• Running into icing...

 

Are you building time for something?

Some people are on a mission to get educated and experienced to reach the next level....Commercial pilot and flying as a career...

We have many people that fly for a living around here... take your pick, ask some questions...

Other than that, building experience is what counts the most for most Mooney owners... so droning along at slow speeds doesn’t usually add much value...  Getting the IR doesn’t take that long...

Go places...

Bring the family...

Go fast...

Go affordable...
 

Go comfortably...

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

When you get good at this stuff....

• Decide where you want to go
• when you want to leave
• Use an app to build your flight plan
• Same app probably gives you the required weather knowledge...
• Plan to use flight following... all the cool kids are doing it...

If you live near the airport... you can probably be going anywhere in a half hour.... 

If you are an engineer... you probably have the tendency to time how long it takes to execute things like this...

My most fun flight plans were done using hotel note pads... and the free pen... and WingX...

That was old style... a list of VORs...

Today the note paper only has one word on it... ^ Direct...  

PP thoughts only, family of four, traveled NJ - MA 200nm, often...

5hours by car, less than 1.5 hrs by M20C...   up and back in the same day if you have a basic AP... really tiring if you hand fly... your body knows it drove for five hours even if it is only 1.5...

Everybody sleeps when you get good at it... taxi for about five minutes... snores.....

Always check your CO monitor... that many people sleeping could be a different problem.... 

Technology has improved flying by leaps and bigger leaps...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Hank]

4 minutes ago, carusoam said:

. . . building experience is what counts the most for most Mooney owners... so droning along at slow speeds doesn’t usually add much value...  Getting the IR doesn’t take that long...

Go places...

Bring the family...

Go fast...

Go affordable...
 

Go comfortably...

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

That's what I did. During my 15 required hours of Dual Instruction (the joys of becoming a Mooney owner at 62 hours time), we visited almost every airport within a Mooney hour. Long, short, flat, humped, low in the middle, uphill, downhill, crooked, you name it! Lots of valuable experience pretty quick. 

The next week, we made a surprise visit for her father's birthday, 270 nm across the Appalachians. A year later, I reached 200 hours enroute from WV to Yellowstone, because she had never been--1320 nm, three days flying and sightseeing in each direction. We got three vacations in that trip:  1) sightseeing westbound, averaging 127 knots, 2) five days in the Park, 3) sightseeing eastbound averaging 151 knots,  with one fuel stop every flying day. I learned a lot on those trips, had a lot of fun and made lots of memories!

[Hank]

11 minutes ago, carusoam said:

If you are an engineer... you probably have the tendency to time how long it takes to execute things like this...

My most fun flight plans were done using hotel note pads... and the free pen... and WingX...

That was old style... a list of VORs...

You cheated! It took me four paper sectionals to reach Cody, WY KCOD, and even then the airport was just off the edge so I had a WAC chart for the last bit. One day I couldn't find my plottre, so I laid my sectionals on the hotel check-in counter and used a lobby magazine as a straight edge to plot my flight path the entire width of the unfolded sectional and halfway across the back side . . . . The little green Flight Guide was indispensable! Miss that little book . . . . Killed by the internet.

P.S.--I'm not that old. We went to Yellowstone in 2008.

Edited June 13, 2020 by Hank

[gsxrpilot]

@Pilot boy send me a PM and a number if you'd like to get on the phone and talk though this stuff. I'm always happy to talk Mooneys.

We're not buying new airplanes and so every one you look at will be different. And there will be certain things that catch your eye in a good way and things that catch your eye in a bad way. The key is to know what's expensive to correct and what's cheap to correct. And then buy the plane that has all the expensive stuff fixed.

Happy to talk...

[BKlott]

For pure cross country, fuel efficient performance, you just cannot beat a C or E model Mooney. It will fly circles around any 172 and fewer circles around a Tiger. 

The Mooney will tend to have higher maintenance costs due to age and complexity. You will also likely encounter higher insurance costs because it has a retractable gear instead of a fixed landing gear. It may also be more difficult to insure if you are an older pilot.

I have owned a 1975 172M for nineteen years, a Grumman Cheetah (the 150 hp version of the a Tiger) for four years and have time in both C and J model Mooneys. My Dad owned a 1964 C model.

Don’t let the appearance of the Tiger put you off. I found my Cheetah to have the nicest, most responsive handling characteristics as well as probably being the most fun airplane I have ever flown. I earned both my Instrument Rating and Commercial ticket in my Cheetah. It will help you develop sharp instrument flying skills. I expect the Tiger to be very similar but with better climb and cruise performance.

Most people will find the Tiger to offer a more comfortable seating position and perhaps better visibility than the Mooney. If you can find one of the later, American General Tigers, that could be a really nice airplane that would provide a good balance between less expensive local flying and reasonable cross country performance.

If I were to shop for a 172 today, I would stick with the newer 180 hp models with the 50 gallon tanks and the factory corrosion proofing.

[Pilot boy]

54 minutes ago, carusoam said:

VFR pilots have two challenges...

• Running into IMC.... and not successfully turning around...  (some people only need about 1/2 hour under a hood to train for a good 180... Others may take some time getting used to the hood...) hood =simulated cloud...
• Running out of fuel.... and not successfully landing...

A FF / totalizer is a great instrument to help keep the fuel issue at bay... comfort level goes up greatly when you have one...

Updated FL sensors are a bonus if you have a decent engine monitor.... (digital display required) 

 

As you gain experience... you will recognize that the tools are only half the battle...

IFR pilots aren’t completely immune to the VFR challenges... but they get two more...

• Running into thunderstorms in IMC...
• Running into icing...

 

Are you building time for something?

Some people are on a mission to get educated and experienced to reach the next level....Commercial pilot and flying as a career...

We have many people that fly for a living around here... take your pick, ask some questions...

Other than that, building experience is what counts the most for most Mooney owners... so droning along at slow speeds doesn’t usually add much value...  Getting the IR doesn’t take that long...

Go places...

Bring the family...

Go fast...

Go affordable...
 

Go comfortably...

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

I just recently earned my IR ticket in February, right after 2 months of almost no flying due to bad Nebraska winter (icing almost every day), and right before the corona hit in force.  My long term goal is to time build, I'm just starting my first few commercial lessons but want to buy the plane before I get too far into rental bills...then time building for ATP for the airline minimums.  I travel for work so I plan to do a combination of work travel in my own plane and possibly CFI work on the days I'm back in town (I work 4 days out of town, 3 days off in town each week which is nice).  Wife wants the 250 nm trips to grandpa (for the baby) to go by fast.  Most time it will be me alone, other times wife and the toddler.  Maybe 4th down the road but I think I may have added this already on this forum.  I have a few posts going here...

[Neshi]

9 hours ago, Pilot boy said:

Yeah I don't think I could do the shotgun panel, I just got my IR rating and I want to get this fixed.  The owner think it's no biggie, but he flies almost totally VFR he told me.

From what others say if your mechanically inclined it should be easy to convert tons of posts in the avionics section.

VFR the shotgun panel is no biggie for me it was eyes out and altimeter then back eyes out.

[M20F-1968]

I did my IFR training, dual from 50 hours to 125 hour in a Grumman Tiger.  It is a fun and responsive airplane to fly, but it is no Mooney.  The Mooney is much better built, a more stable IFR platform, a safer airplane structurally, and flies more like you would expect an IFR plane to fly.  Maintenance on the Mooney should not be that much more if at all.  Yes you have a prop and landing gear to care for, but a manual gear Mooney is not a maintenance hog.  

Buy the E.  More HP, injected engine.  I would not want the Tiger.  There are potential issues with the bonded skins as well.

John Breda

[rbridges]

19 hours ago, Pilot boy said:

Oh, I thought this would be extremely difficult.  That is good to know.  I may also just go the G5 route so I can get more info off the one gauge......i'm hoping it can work with a Garmin 430WAAS ?  any insight on this or do I have to upgrade something else to get a G5 like upgrade to a GTN650?

Just to give you a measuring stick, an avionics shop in georgia quoted me $1800 to get a new aluminum panel. 

If you plan to fly with kids 10 years from now, the c/e may be tight. Eventually you may want an F for the extra rear legroom. 

[bradp]

I agree on the F.  You don’t give up much at all and gain rear pax legroom. 

[Pilot boy]

Okay, so I have some new info on the 1964 E model with the fuel bladders.  I was able to look at it again yesterday and go through the logbooks a bit.  This guy hasn't flown it much.  It had 169 hours between 2012 and present.  It's only flown about 15 hrs per year for 2017, 2018, and 2019.  It was flown around 40 hrs per year from 2008 to 2012.  It is at SMOH 1386.  I think he said he used Camguard in the oil changes and he has been pretty  meticulous about maintenance.  (he leaves the doors open in the hangar so the rubber seals don't get damaged over time).  How bad is all this?  I didn't  realize he had let it sit so much.  He's also not budging much on price from $60k.  Do you build in some sort of engine warranty in a deal like this?  Like if it doesn't last to TBO (im hoping it lasts even to 1800 hrs) you cover 1/3 of the overhaul or something?  

[rbridges]

15 minutes ago, Pilot boy said:

Okay, so I have some new info on the 1964 E model with the fuel bladders.  I was able to look at it again yesterday and go through the logbooks a bit.  This guy hasn't flown it much.  It had 169 hours between 2012 and present.  It's only flown about 15 hrs per year for 2017, 2018, and 2019.  It was flown around 40 hrs per year from 2008 to 2012.  It is at SMOH 1386.  I think he said he used Camguard in the oil changes and he has been pretty  meticulous about maintenance.  (he leaves the doors open in the hangar so the rubber seals don't get damaged over time).  How bad is all this?  I didn't  realize he had let it sit so much.  He's also not budging much on price from $60k.  Do you build in some sort of engine warranty in a deal like this?  Like if it doesn't last to TBO (im hoping it lasts even to 1800 hrs) you cover 1/3 of the overhaul or something?  

that's a little low.  Even with camguard, I think you should fly at least an hour every 3 weeks.  That's kinda the rule of thumb I've put together reading posts.  Of course, that's not gospel.  IMO it's enough to keep oil kicked around the engine and moisture burned out of the oil routinely.  Even given this minimum, you'd be hitting around 20 hours a year.  He's close, but that's assuming it was spread out evenly.  Most likely, there are probably some longer trips with extended gaps between flights.  

Being at ~1400 smoh, you should only be paying for 30-35% of the engine value.  If the plane is priced with this in mind, you don't have as much to lose as someone buying a 200smoh at nearly full price that's been sitting around.  

Edited June 14, 2020 by rbridges

[Neshi]

3 minutes ago, Pilot boy said:

Okay, so I have some new info on the 1964 E model with the fuel bladders.  I was able to look at it again yesterday and go through the logbooks a bit.  This guy hasn't flown it much.  It had 169 hours between 2012 and present.  It's only flown about 15 hrs per year for 2017, 2018, and 2019.  It was flown around 40 hrs per year from 2008 to 2012.  It is at SMOH 1386.  I think he said he used Camguard in the oil changes and he has been pretty  meticulous about maintenance.  (he leaves the doors open in the hangar so the rubber seals don't get damaged over time).  How bad is all this?  I didn't  realize he had let it sit so much.  He's also not budging much on price from $60k.  Do you build in some sort of engine warranty in a deal like this?  Like if it doesn't last to TBO (im hoping it lasts even to 1800 hrs) you cover 1/3 of the overhaul or something?  

With used airplanes things are as is. 
 

get a good prebuy done any airworthy faults are a point for negotiation cosmetics not so much. 
 

When I purchased mine we had a bad cylinder the owner paid for a replacement with a price reduction and I paid for the install. 

[MIm20c]

43 minutes ago, Pilot boy said:

Do you build in some sort of engine warranty in a deal like this?  Like if it doesn't last to TBO (im hoping it lasts even to 1800 hrs) you cover 1/3 of the overhaul or something?  

If you were buying a 20 year old motorcycle would you expect the previous owner to fix the engine years after you purchased it?  No guarantees in life, even those who spent large amounts on a new Mooney found the factory is not backing them up with warranty claims. 

[ArtVandelay]

How does leaving the hangar doors open help the rubber seals?

[Pilot boy]

2 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

I think he was referring to leaving the cabin door open when the airplane is in the hangar in order to minimize the compression on the cabin door seal.  Seems unnecessary to me.  

Jim

Correct the owner leaves the hangar closed but the doors open on the plane to not cause long term compression damage to the seals.  

[Pilot boy]

2 hours ago, MIm20c said:

If you were buying a 20 year old motorcycle would you expect the previous owner to fix the engine years after you purchased it?  No guarantees in life, even those who spent large amounts on a new Mooney found the factory is not backing them up with warranty claims. 

I have sold many vehicles and often offer warranties to buyers for peace of mind to make a deal go through.  If this engine lasts me "years" after I take possession I will be happy.  If it lasts 1 or 2 years I will be surprised.... So if you expect me as buyer to buy a motorcycle engine with obvious issues and the seller still expect full retail, that's unreasonable.   I don't think a seller can have it both ways, if the maintenance on the engine is not where it should be and the engine hasn't been run in quite some time, the price of the plane should be lowered to compensate for that or he can offer me some sort of warranty for the first couple hundred hours to cover some of the risk of his poor care.  Everything is negotiable.

Those buyers on the new Mooneys have a case for lawsuits if the factory won't back it up.

[Pilot boy]

3 hours ago, Neshi said:

With used airplanes things are as is. 
 

get a good prebuy done any airworthy faults are a point for negotiation cosmetics not so much. 
 

When I purchased mine we had a bad cylinder the owner paid for a replacement with a price reduction and I paid for the install. 

How do you check cam for corrosion?  Can this be borescoped or do you have to pull the cylinders?

[Pilot boy]

3 hours ago, rbridges said:

that's a little low.  Even with camguard, I think you should fly at least an hour every 3 weeks.  That's kinda the rule of thumb I've put together reading posts.  Of course, that's not gospel.  IMO it's enough to keep oil kicked around the engine and moisture burned out of the oil routinely.  Even given this minimum, you'd be hitting around 20 hours a year.  He's close, but that's assuming it was spread out evenly.  Most likely, there are probably some longer trips with extended gaps between flights.  

Being at ~1400 smoh, you should only be paying for 30-35% of the engine value.  If the plane is priced with this in mind, you don't have as much to lose as someone buying a 200smoh at nearly full price that's been sitting around.  

Yeah he wants $60K, basically full price for it.  At least I assume a 1964 E with 430 WAAS, engine monitors, STEC30, and fuel bladders is worth about that.  I don't see them around for too much more.  I think he needs to come down to around $50k to make it worth the risk but I appreciate any pricing insights.

[ArtVandelay]

How do you check cam for corrosion?  Can this be borescoped or do you have to pull the cylinders?

Pull cylinder on Lycoming.

[Neshi]

Just now, Pilot boy said:

How do you check cam for corrosion?  Can this be borescoped or do you have to pull the cylinders?

that will be part of your pre-buy.

I'm not mechanically inclined but I think the pistons may need to come out for that.

[carusoam]

Recognize that some planes are better for somebody else...

 

As a first time buyer... you have your plate full already...

You want a plane that has flown often...

You found a plane that has not flown often...

Next...

 

Once you have rejected planes for not flying often enough...

You decide to include them in your search...

You have now decided to absorb additional financial risk...

Nothing wrong with this approach...

But, your plate is full already...

If something goes wrong, it gets expensive fast...

These are known issues... there is no insurance to cover this...

There are no sellers that can cover this either... not even family members...

 

Sure there are families that do this for each other... there are also families that pass planes from one generation to the next.... 

Using statistics can be challenging... Not using statistics can be worse...
 

My first plane had many unknowns... I hoped to get lucky... I planned for a certain level of expenses that could occur... if I needed an engine OH... my flying would end immediately...   I got a new cylinder within the first few months... and survived...

PP thoughts only...
 

Best regards,

-a-