Electronic ignition

[carusoam]

Two spheres of flame propagate from opposite sides of the cylinder and intersect as the flame fronts collide...

Mag timing... will have an effect....

Spark strength... will have an effect...

Fuel distribution... will have an effect...
 

Do you think anyone knows this topic enough to make judgements or have done the instrumented experiments?

Who are the guys with the instrumented IO550 in a lab?   (Fuzzy memory not working tonight)

A great question for those folks...

Best regards,

-a-

[Andy95W]

2 hours ago, Gary0747 said:

My thoughts with having the higher ignition spark on the same side of all the cylinders either bottom or top have to do with uniformity of the ignition generated flame fronts between all cylinders.  This might make for a smoother running engine.  
Just wondering if anyone has tried it both ways, all one side versus staggered?

They say it doesn't matter.  The evidence for that is when the electronic ignition advances the timing, it only fires one plug early and the engine still runs very smooth, particularly lean of peak.

[Sethg52000]

On 4/25/2020 at 11:25 AM, DXB said:

CHTs didn't change much that I noticed. It should make no difference in full power climb and I suppose could lead to higher temps in cruise under conditions where it advances - I didn't fly with it long enough until I  had a new Powerflow exhaust and other work done shortly thereafter, and I have some new CHT issues but I'm not sure I can blame the Surefly.

It does make starts dramatically easier under all conditions. 

I'm not sure I notice the potential effects of added power when it advances either - again probably too subtle to pick up without looking carefully.

What I do notice is that I'm able to lean more without roughness - cruising at 65-70% power in the 8-8.5gph range, which is nearly a 1 gph improvement.  That is a surprise to me - I thought it would only help leaning in people with balanced injectors, because power imbalance among cylinders would get in the way first before difficulty igniting lean mixtures for a carb'd bird.  Given that power imbalance,  I bet CHT on my richest cylinder will keep me from running that lean in the summer.  

I have recently had the SureFly EI installed, And have one flight in the books. I spent longer than I thought I would trying to start the engine, what is your start sequence? Thanks!

[Ragsf15e]

 

4 hours ago, Sethg52000 said:

I have recently had the SureFly EI installed, And have one flight in the books. I spent longer than I thought I would trying to start the engine, what is your start sequence? Thanks!

Interesting, mine starts super easy with the Surefly.  Normal technique depending on hot/cold.  

Did you replace the left mag?

Was the engine hot or warm or run within the last few hours?  Proper hot start technique is still definitely required.

[carusoam]

Seth,

It is a tradition to supply info about your plane... when asking questions...

Realistically, anyone with an electronic ignition is going to report easier starts, when it is installed properly...

Fuel, air, spark....

Start timing is important...

Proper settings are important...

Many things have been reported as problematic with the early installs...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[Sethg52000]

3 hours ago, carusoam said:

Seth,

It is a tradition to supply info about your plane... when asking questions...

Realistically, anyone with an electronic ignition is going to report easier starts, when it is installed properly...

Fuel, air, spark....

Start timing is important...

Proper settings are important...

Many things have been reported as problematic with the early installs...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

Sorry, yes, that would be helpful, 70’ F model, IO-360, GAMI’s, PF exhaust, and CHR-30P. I wasn’t sure if normal practices were still followed. I see in the other response that status quo practices still apply, thanks all! Looking forward to seeing advantages to EI!  

[Ragsf15e]

3 hours ago, Sethg52000 said:

Sorry, yes, that would be helpful, 70’ F model, IO-360, GAMI’s, PF exhaust, and CHR-30P. I wasn’t sure if normal practices were still followed. I see in the other response that status quo practices still apply, thanks all! Looking forward to seeing advantages to EI!  

Yes, if it was starting reasonably well before the SF, and isn’t starting at least that well now, I’d suspect an installation or hardware problem.  Mine starts easier than before, but it was never hard to start.

If you want to check your start techniques (hot vs cold), there are an almost unlimited number of threads on that on Mooneyspace.  

 

Some people have decided to install SF on the right side in which case it will not be helping on the start unless you’ve also modified the key wiring.

[carusoam]

Detail added...

The left mag has the device that automatically adjust ignition timing to 0° BTDC... instead of 20 or 25°...

See which mag they replaced with the SF...

PP thoughts only...

Best regards,

-a-

[Sethg52000]

On 6/9/2020 at 5:09 AM, carusoam said:

Seth,

It is a tradition to supply info about your plane... when asking questions...

Realistically, anyone with an electronic ignition is going to report easier starts, when it is installed properly...

Fuel, air, spark....

Start timing is important...

Proper settings are important...

Many things have been reported as problematic with the early installs...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

Sorry, yes, that would be helpful, 70’ F model, IO-360, GAMI’s, PF exhaust, and CHR-30P. I wasn’t sure if normal practices were still followed. I see in the other response that status quo practices still apply, thanks all! Looking forward to seeing advantages to EI!  
 

Yes, SF on left mag, I misunderstood the instructions for starting from the MX that installed it, and I had preconceived notions about how the start would go, which were wrong. 
Thanks to all who replied! I’ll Be flying today, cooler wx with high overcast will make a great day! 

[chrixxer]

Just making sure - Mooney M20F, 1969, no impulse couplers, correct?

 My interaction with the SureFly folks:
 

I have a 1969 Mooney M20F (Lycoming IO-360-A1A, S4LN-200 and -204 Bendix magnetos) that's in the middle of an engine overhaul. Thinking it makes sense to swap one of the magnetos for electronic ignition at this point. Questions:

• Can the SureFly replace the Shower of Sparks starting system? I'd like to remove as many points of failure as possible.

Yes, Remove the SOS - you won’t need it.

• Do I need impulse coupled (4P) or non (4N)?

Depends on which mag you are replacing. If it has an impulse coupler then use SIM4P

 

[bob865]

23 minutes ago, chrixxer said:

Just making sure - Mooney M20F, 1969, no impulse couplers, correct?

 My interaction with the SureFly folks:
 

I have a 1969 Mooney M20F (Lycoming IO-360-A1A, S4LN-200 and -204 Bendix magnetos) that's in the middle of an engine overhaul. Thinking it makes sense to swap one of the magnetos for electronic ignition at this point. Questions:

• Can the SureFly replace the Shower of Sparks starting system? I'd like to remove as many points of failure as possible.

Yes, Remove the SOS - you won’t need it.

• Do I need impulse coupled (4P) or non (4N)?

Depends on which mag you are replacing. If it has an impulse coupler then use SIM4P

 

 

Correct.  You do not have an impulse coupling.  You need the SIM4N.  That's what I'm installing on mine anyway.   

[chrixxer]

Correct.  You do not have an impulse coupling.  You need the SIM4N.  That's what I'm installing on mine anyway.   

Thanks!

 

Do I need the $15 "Manufacturer C of C" ("Traceability Paperwork (if available)")? Edit: Sounds like probably no (but at $15 it's cheaper than the gas I'll burn to pick everything up, so why not...) https://www.skylinkintl.com/blog/traceability101

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bob865]

1 hour ago, chrixxer said:

Thanks!

 

Do I need the $15 "Manufacturer C of C" ("Traceability Paperwork (if available)")? Edit: Sounds like probably no (but at $15 it's cheaper than the gas I'll burn to pick everything up, so why not...) https://www.skylinkintl.com/blog/traceability101

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I sure hope not.  I didn't order one.  

[MikeOH]

8 hours ago, chrixxer said:

Just making sure - Mooney M20F, 1969, no impulse couplers, correct?

 My interaction with the SureFly folks:
 

I have a 1969 Mooney M20F (Lycoming IO-360-A1A, S4LN-200 and -204 Bendix magnetos) that's in the middle of an engine overhaul. Thinking it makes sense to swap one of the magnetos for electronic ignition at this point. Questions:

• Can the SureFly replace the Shower of Sparks starting system? I'd like to remove as many points of failure as possible.

Yes, Remove the SOS - you won’t need it.

• Do I need impulse coupled (4P) or non (4N)?

Depends on which mag you are replacing. If it has an impulse coupler then use SIM4P

 

 

Help me understand the above.  If your plane has a SOS for starting then it does NOT have an impulse coupled mag; which makes sense.

Now, you are REMOVING the SOS system.  Without it, you would need an impulse coupled mag.  Yet, you are being told to order the NON impulse 4N by SureFly. This doesn't make sense to me if the SOS is removed.  Otherwise, what's the point of SureFly offering the SIM4P??

Their question is kind of strange, "Depends on which mag you are replacing. If it has an impulse coupler then use SIM4P". You just told them you have SOS and NO impulse coupled mags.

Seems with NO impulse coupled mags and NO SOS, there could be starting problems!

[bob865]

This thread may help.

 

[MikeOH]

2 hours ago, bob865 said:

This thread may help.

 

Thank you!

[McMooney]

3 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Help me understand the above.  If your plane has a SOS for starting then it does NOT have an impulse coupled mag; which makes sense.

Now, you are REMOVING the SOS system.  Without it, you would need an impulse coupled mag.  Yet, you are being told to order the NON impulse 4N by SureFly. This doesn't make sense to me if the SOS is removed.  Otherwise, what's the point of SureFly offering the SIM4P??

Their question is kind of strange, "Depends on which mag you are replacing. If it has an impulse coupler then use SIM4P". You just told them you have SOS and NO impulse coupled mags.

Seems with NO impulse coupled mags and NO SOS, there could be starting problems!

[Gary0747]

Has anybody replaced that push on rubber hose connecting the Surefly to the Manifold Pressure with something more substantial with treaded connections?  If so what kind of hose did you use?

[47U]

1 hour ago, Gary0747 said:

Has anybody replaced that push on rubber hose connecting the Surefly to the Manifold Pressure with something more substantial with treaded connections?  If so what kind of hose did you use?

I tapped into the manifold pressure with a T-fitting at the firewall using a Stratoflex 193-2 hose.  The wall thickness is twice as much as the hose they sent in the kit.  As far as the barbed fitting on the mag, there’s no way that hose is coming off without a razor blade.  If you’re concerned, put a zip tie on it for extra security.

tom