Fuel leak under wing but I have bladders.

[rbridges]

Just noticed it today. Anyone got any ideas?  Sorry for upside down pic. 

[Gagarin]

Check the bladder interconnect nipples and clamps. Blow air into the nipple and check for bubbles.

[steingar]

Joey Cole told me the bladders could be pulled out the holes they went in a dan refurbished in situ.  He claimed it was about an AMU squawk.

[rbridges]

11 minutes ago, Gagarin said:

Check the bladder interconnect nipples and clamps. Blow air into the nipple and check for bubbles.

I have no idea how to do that. Not sure the local IA would either. I sent a pic to Joey Cole. 

[N201MKTurbo]

Just talk to some 310 owners and ask them if bladders ever leak?

[carusoam]

RB,

Start with a drawing of the installation...

Somebody posted it around here the other day...

Probably Terry or Marauder...

And as José mentioned... there are a handful of parts that could be the culprit...

Too soon to fear anything expensive... 
 

With the drawing in hand, you and your mechanic can probably find it pretty quickly.

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

Sorry about that, Rob. But I think Anthony is right; my guess would be the tube that connects cells going through a rib.

[rbridges]

8 minutes ago, Hank said:

Sorry about that, Rob. But I think Anthony is right; my guess would be the tube that connects cells going through a rib.

@Marauder gave me some advice.  I'm going to fly up to @Mooneymite and look at it with him and one of his mechanics. Hopefully it's a simple fix. 

[Hank]

1 minute ago, rbridges said:

@Marauder gave me some advice.  I'm going to fly up to @Mooneymite and look at it with him and one of his mechanics. Hopefully it's a simple fix. 

Wish I could help, but I don't kniw nothin' 'bout no bladders . . . . 

[rbridges]

21 minutes ago, Hank said:

Wish I could help, but I don't kniw nothin' 'bout no bladders . . . . 

Me neither.  I'm just gonna hold the flashlight and say that I helped. 

[Guitarmaster]

Just talk to some 310 owners and ask them if bladders ever leak?

As a matter of fact, my right one is leaking presently. Near the top where it doesn't typically have fuel touching it. I am cringing at the thought of pulling that out and sending it to get it rebuilt.

[N201MKTurbo]

21 minutes ago, Guitarmaster said:

20 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Just talk to some 310 owners and ask them if bladders ever leak?

As a matter of fact, my right one is leaking presently. Near the top where it doesn't typically have fuel touching it. I am cringing at the thought of pulling that out and sending it to get it rebuilt.

Sorry to hear about your troubles, but there are so many people here that think if you have bladders your tank problems are over forever.

[Guitarmaster]

Sorry to hear about your troubles, but there are so many people here that think if you have bladders your tank problems are over forever.

Meh... I didn't find any record of that bladder ever being replaced. I suspect it might be the age of the airplane, 64 years, but I find that hard to believe as well.

[N201MKTurbo]

Just now, Guitarmaster said:

35 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Sorry to hear about your troubles, but there are so many people here that think if you have bladders your tank problems are over forever.

Meh... I didn't find any record of that bladder ever being replaced. I suspect it might be the age of the airplane, 64 years, but I find that hard to believe as well.

I attended a bladder seminar two years ago where they went through all the different materials that have been used in 310 bladders. They started with nitrile rubber reinforced with Cotton. In the 60s and 70s they tried to improve them with more modern materials. They are now back to rubber and cotton.

[BDPetersen]

Had forgotten about the aux bladders on my 310 needing to be kept less than full for leak avoidance. Tuna tanks were fine.

Ironically, this afternoon I’ve been researching O&N bladders for my “C”.

[Bob_Belville]

I've been led  to believe that the bladders in Cessnas are different that the heavy gauge O&N (now Griggs) bladders in Mooneys (STC SA2350CE).

Mooney never offered bladders, I don't think, so. It appears the original STC dates to 1988. 

When I added the extra 10 gallon bladders I got a chance to examine the old ones which date from 1997 and they looked like new. 

Both Joey Cole and Lynn Mace (@AGL Aviation KMRN) have quite a lot of Mooney bladder experience. I would not think it's a big deal.

BICBW...

 

[Mooneymite]

I suspect any leakage is due to the bladder interconnections, or the access panel gaskets.  Both can be fixed quickly with a screwdriver.  Personally, the only leak in an O&N bladder I've ever heard of was due to an installation error.  If any bladder owner has had an aging issue with a bladder, I'd be very interested in hearing about it.

[carusoam]

I looked at it a couple of different ways...

But my humor isn’t going to help...

-a-

[MoonFlyer68]

On this subject I have a follow up question.  During my last annual I had the 64 GAL system installed in my 68 M20F by a Mooney Service Center.  What I have found is that if I top off the tanks and let the plane sit in my hangar for a few days I will come back to a small spot under the left wing at the front of the gear door.  Now what is odd about this is the consistancy of what is there.  It is VERY thick and sticky.  It is not just a "Blue fuel stain".  There is fuel in it I assume becuase it is blue, but because it is so thick there has to be something else there also.  For now until I take it back to annual my answer is simply not to leave it with full tanks.  If I take the family and some bags I am limited to 50 total gallons so that is what I am leaving the tanks at in the hangar.  If I am going to fly and want more gas I just top off before I depart.  I am not currently anywhere near the plane so no pictures, sorry.  Any thoughts on what the issue may be?  Any thoughts on what is making the spot so thick and sticky?  Is it common (as someone with a 310 said) to not quite fill the baldders if the airplane will sit?  Thanks.

[carusoam]

8R...

What you are witnessing is similar to Maple syrup...

starts out watery like 100LL... escapes the fuel tank....

and the evaporation starts....

By the time it hits the ground and sits... it dries into a darkish blue color before turning brown....

That is the blue goo that results from evaporating 100LL... Nice and sticky is the other descriptor... tough to clean too...

it takes a few gallons to get a lot of solids...

PP thoughts, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[MoonFlyer68]

55 minutes ago, carusoam said:

8R...

What you are witnessing is similar to Maple syrup...

starts out watery like 100LL... escapes the fuel tank....

and the evaporation starts....

By the time it hits the ground and sits... it dries into a darkish blue color before turning brown....

That is the blue goo that results from evaporating 100LL... Nice and sticky is the other descriptor... tough to clean too...

it takes a few gallons to get a lot of solids...

PP thoughts, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

Thanks for the feedback.  I was not aware that 100LL could, under the right circumstances, turn into such a sticky mess.  You are absolutely right about trying to clean it up.  That stuff is a PITA.  I will look more into the issue on my own when I get home to see what I can find. 

[rbridges]

5 hours ago, MilitaryAV8R said:

Thanks for the feedback.  I was not aware that 100LL could, under the right circumstances, turn into such a sticky mess.  You are absolutely right about trying to clean it up.  That stuff is a PITA.  I will look more into the issue on my own when I get home to see what I can find. 

I crawled under the wing to clean it last night. Tuff stuff barely helped. I used a little acetone, and it worked well.  The fuel residue was very firm. 

Edited March 4, 2020 by rbridges

[steingar]

My CFI claims he smells fuel on from the passenger side.  Spent a fair amount of coin having the fuel system examined, no leaks.  Las time I flew with him I told him to shut up about it.  Could be a bladder issue though.  Haven't seen any leaks, and they are pretty obvious.  But a seep could generate smell but no visible gas.  Bleech.

[carusoam]

There is a recommended solvent used for cleaning fuels stains... that is acceptable for use on paint...  9 out of 10 MSers probably remember the name of this solvent, I’m the 10^th)

As far as somebody being able to tell what side of the plane the aroma is coming from... That is a very skilled nose... 

I had fuel leaking into the cabin... I was comforted by the thought the aroma was old car smell... it could be detected each time I entered the plane after a week of sitting... (the plane, not me...)

 

So... even a small leak at the fuel level sensor... fuel has a tendency to migrate under the rug to the back seat... turning the floor and rug a pretty blue...  high octane fuel doesn’t evaporate all that quickly.

The good news... there are two small rubber bits that are pretty easy to update... fuel level sensor seal... used to be cork.  And a small rubber tube connector on the fuel line...

This works for both the sealed tanks and the tanks with bladders...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

22 hours ago, carusoam said:

There is a recommended solvent used for cleaning fuels stains... that is acceptable for use on paint...  9 out of 10 MSers probably remember the name of this solvent, I’m the 10^th)

I used 100LL for smallish stains, and added scothbrite for stubborn stains. But in my off white wings, the fuel left a brownish stain behind.

People used to just comment about fuel drips that "Mooneys mark their spot." Now reseal technology and methods have improved!