CFI Help

[geoffb]

Working on finally knocking out my commercial.  Feeling OK about chandelles and lazy-8s.  The power-off spot landing on the other hand is causing me fits.  Anybody have any pointers they'd like to share for getting a short body down?  Seems that there is a very narrow band for getting this right.  My current efforts have be slowing to about 85 mph as I make the turn toward the runway.  Full flaps once I'm sure of having enough altitude and then slipping as needed to burn off altitude.  Plane still wants to accelerate some in the slip and if you kick it straight and flair a hair too soon it of course floats along.  Burn off a hair too much energy and you drop in short.

It's been maddening.

Any pointers?

[KLRDMD]

You still have one more control. If you pull the prop back it increases your glide. If you come in a bit slower and pull the prob back as needed that will give you one more drag device to implement.

[Hank]

85 mph on final slowing to 75 mph - 5 mph for every 300 lb that landing is below gross. That's my normal landing. Short field and spot landings need to be slower. Slip as needed.

And be safe!!

[Pete M]

Sounds like you may be high if you're accelerating in the slip. You can fine tune where it sets down by flairing more to hold it up or dropping the nose a bit to land flat. I rarely have to slip and that usually means your starting with too much energy. Setting Landing flaps in ground effect will cause you to float, if u need to.

Edited February 10, 2020 by Pete M

[RobertGary1]

25 minutes ago, Pete M said:

Sounds like you may be high if you're accelerating in the slip. You can fine tune where it sets down by flairing more to hold it up or dropping the nose a bit to land flat. I rarely have to slip and that usually means your starting with too much energy. Setting Landing flaps in ground effect will cause you to float, if u need to.

For the precision 180 I plan to slip. Otherwise if you get a bit of a headwind you may be short and that's an automatic failure.

-Robert

[Ibra]

For commercial check-ride, I guess the technique has to be as per the POH/AFM, so mainly the question is you float because of extra speed passing the 50ft hedge or extra speed for stall at your weight, so adjust few kts for weight as @Hank suggested (unless you need to know VS0 bellow MTOW when you stall it)

Otherwise, for power-off landing you can decide on runway touch point and burn-off hight technique depending on the day conditions   

- To burn-off height slowly fly at near Vbg, something roughly 1.3*VS0-1.4*VS0

- To burn-off height fast (no power and no/full flaps) you have two choices, up to you?

     * Slow down to 1.1*VS1/VS0 and fly ball in middle, I go for this when it is calm, no need to flare near ground but conservative touch point 1/3 runway

     * Accelerate up to to VFE on flaps+/-sideslip, I go for this when windy +/- crosswind (no flaps) aim for numbers and can accelerate as much as headwind 

Basically don't go fast on sideslip to the middle of the runway on clam days and don't go slow to the threshold in gusty days 

Edited February 11, 2020 by Ibra

[RobertGary1]

15 minutes ago, Ibra said:

 

     * Slow down to 1.1*VS1/VS0 and fly ball in middle, I go for this when it is calm, no need to flare near ground but conservative touch point 1/3 runway

 

Must be between 0ft  short and max 100ft long of the declared touch down point to pass.

-Robert

[Ibra]

Where does the declared point sit, on the numbers?

Checking if -10ft is a fail or off the runway 

[PT20J]

A couple of ideas:

1. Try practicing the maneuver with no flaps and aiming for midfield. You don't have to actually touch down if you don't want to, but be able to consistently hit that point. Once you can do that, you can use the flaps to steepen your descent to land shorter. The key is to learn to continuously visualize your glide path  throughout the maneuver. Changes to speed and configuration makes this harder.

2. Your approach must be stabilized per the ACS. You should be able to do it with very little slipping if any. If you do need to slip, do it early and get out of the slip by 200' in order to get everything stabilized at a normal approach speed.

Skip

[RobertGary1]

2 minutes ago, Ibra said:

Where does the declared point sit, on the numbers?

Checking if -10ft is a fail or off the runway 

Personally I declare it as the beginning of the second centerline stripe with my students just to give some room if they are a bit short.  I've never met an examiner who really cares as long as its agreed before you start the maneuver. 

But yes, 1 foot short of the declared point is a failure on the commercial and CFI checkrides.

 

-Robert

[PT20J]

Just now, Ibra said:

Where does the declared point sit, on the numbers?

Checking if -10ft is a fail or off the runway 

Either you or the examiner (examiner's choice) will designate the specified point before the maneuver begins. From the current ACS:

"Touch down at a proper pitch attitude, within 200 feet beyond or on the specified point with no side drift and with the airplane’s longitudinal axis aligned with and over the runway centerline or landing path, as applicable."

Skip

[RobertGary1]

Just now, PT20J said:

Either you or the examiner (examiner's choice) will designate the specified point before the maneuver begins. From the current ACS:

"Touch down at a proper pitch attitude, within 200 feet beyond or on the specified point with no side drift and with the airplane’s longitudinal axis aligned with and over the runway centerline or landing path, as applicable."

Skip

Ah, yes 200 feet for power off. I misstated 100 feet (which is for with power).

-Robert

[RobertGary1]

I've done this maneuver for 3 difference checkrides. Very happy I have no more checkrides that include this maneuver

-Robert

[Jkeene02]

What I did on mine was 

use the 1000’ marker 

the end of the wing was at edge of runway parrell maybe a fuzz farther 

as soon as power was pulled abeam the marker pitch for best glide grab gear while counting to 8. Seconds then turn base as soon as you are 500’ agl turn to you point 

 

took my test in 25kt winds and came across the taxi way about 10 feet off dumping the flaps to get a little extra float but nailed the spot... the gusty wind killed my base 

[Jkeene02]

What I did on mine was 

use the 1000’ marker 

the end of the wing was at edge of runway parrell maybe a fuzz farther 

as soon as power was pulled abeam the marker pitch for best glide grab gear while counting to 8. Seconds then turn base as soon as you are 500’ agl turn to you point 

 

took my test in 25kt winds and came across the taxi way about 10 feet off dumping the flaps to get a little extra float but nailed the spot... the gusty wind killed my base 
 

I think I used 90kts 

[Pete M]

3 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

For the precision 180 I plan to slip. Otherwise if you get a bit of a headwind you may be short and that's an automatic failure.

-Robert

If you're slipping it generally means you've already got the flaps out. If you've got the flaps out and you're slipping and the airplane is accelerating, ie nose down you started with too much energy...too high and or too fast. Start lower, slower and add flaps as needed. If you're coming up short dont add flaps, pull prop back. Be aware of where the wind is coming from and its speed. A strong headwind will make a big difference. Adjust your pattern. Turn base/final earlier. Having to slip means you've really misjudged your energy state when you started. You may have to do it but i wouldnt plan for it. It almost always means you're going to carry too much speed into ground effect and float well past your aimpoint.

[RobertGary1]

12 minutes ago, Pete M said:

If you're slipping it generally means you've already got the flaps out. If you've got the flaps out and you're slipping and the airplane is accelerating, ie nose down you started with too much energy...too high and or too fast. Start lower, slower and add flaps as needed. If you're coming up short dont add flaps, pull prop back. Be aware of where the wind is coming from and its speed. A strong headwind will make a big difference. Adjust your pattern. Turn base/final earlier. Having to slip means you've really misjudged your energy state when you started. You may have to do it but i wouldnt plan for it. It almost always means you're going to carry too much speed into ground effect and float well past your aimpoint.

It’s a good tool. That’s the challenge with this maneuver is you don’t have a lot of options for correction. Being high energy a slip will fix, low energy and you’re probably paying an extra $700 for a rescheduled checkride. I’m a taildraggers guy so slipping is part of normal life. In the seaplane with big edo floats it’s even better. 
But I’ve already taken all 3 checkrides that requires this so I don’t have to do another one.
 

-Robert 

[geoffb]

I’ve essentially been planning on the slip.  From the feedback I appreciate that this is flawed logic.  I’ll try the no-flaps technique 

[Immelman]

Power off abeam. Be already at gear speed or below. Gear down half flaps, trim for 90.

That is your starting point. Now you have TWO tools to use to get down, and TWO to extend:

 

TO get down:

1. The rest of the flaps

2. Slip, to include a turning slip

 

To extend the glide:

1. 10mph+ of extra airspeed in case you misjudge the wind or are coming up short.

2. The rest of the flaps..... If you're coming up short no need to use full flap now is there?

Now go forth and use your tools, and practice. That is what mastering the maneuver is all about, practice. And the more practice you do in varying wind conditions, the better.

Edited February 11, 2020 by Immelman

[RobertGary1]

1 minute ago, geoffb said:

I’ve essentially been planning on the slip.  From the feedback I appreciate that this is flawed logic.  I’ll try the no-flaps technique 

Too many Mooney drivers afraid of the rudder. A little tailwheel time and it will be their primary control. 
 

-Robert 

[geoffb]

The Mooney seems less forgiving for this with the relatively low drag and exaggerated ground effect.  I bet a Cutlass is easier......

 

 

[RobertGary1]

Just now, geoffb said:

The Mooney seems less forgiving for this with the relatively low drag and exaggerated ground effect.  I bet a Cutlass is easier......

 

 

For sure it’s an easier maneuver in many other singles. Just the fact that the glide speed and the approach speed aren’t about the same makes it more complex than a Cessna. 

-Robert 

[geoffb]

I’m comfortable with the slip.  Where I’m struggling is with getting the energy just right at the flare.  More practice I guess.

[RobertGary1]

8 minutes ago, geoffb said:

I’m comfortable with the slip.  Where I’m struggling is with getting the energy just right at the flare.  More practice I guess.

Also your timing of your turns are important. If you’re high extend base, even fly past final. If you’re low energy turn final early and don’t square off the turn

-Robert 

[Immelman]

1 hour ago, geoffb said:

I’m comfortable with the slip.  Where I’m struggling is with getting the energy just right at the flare.  More practice I guess.

You nailed it. Repetition. You are making a mental model in your brain of when your Mooney is ready to land.

The beauty of doing this rating in your plane (I am assuming its yours) vs a rental is that you can go bang out patterns cheaply at a sleepy airport. Go out and do 10 tomorrow, if you can swing it, 10 more the next day.

But I say again.. practice in varying wind conditions. Wind has a tremendous effect when you remove the luxury of power in an approach.