Accident in Johnson County Kansas Mooney M20 S

[bradp]

Maybe they should just ask Cirrus how they do it. Or partner with MAPA PPP / Mooney safety foundation to be able to promulgate the material.  

One aspect is that the Cirrus folks value their pre owned Cirrus customers because they know that 1) any downed Cirrus hurts new Cirrus sales and 2) if they can offer the same customer experience “welcome to the family” mentality to the owner of a first gen beater SR20 as for a still under warranty 2018 Carbon, they are making future sales right there.    
 

The fact that Mooney has no vision for how safety and training impacts marketing and vice verse has plagued the company for years and continues to do so. The TT materials being available for $800k and no less is one more example.  How many new Mooney owners were used Mooney owners prior to purchasing?  Despite Mark B sacrificing himself to avoid injury to others, how many future Mooney sales evaporated as a result of his crash? Weren’t there (unfounded) rumblings that the factory closure was a result of it.  Optics matter.  Safety matters more. 

[mike_elliott]

Dan, does Cirrus build in the cost of free training for all used Cirrus into each new Cirrus sale? They must, I imagine. Amortized over the checks of 300 new owners would be a lot more palatable then to ask a couple dozen guys cover the cost of a couple hundred used Mooney sales each year.
I'm all ears for such a program if someone can package it up to where it makes fiscal sense for Mooney and all parties. I'll definitely run it up the pole with Kevin if such a solution exists
While we are at it, would there be any interest in transition training by Mooney Pros, Inc in an Acclaim?

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[Bryan]

Any more details of the crash or victims?  I own a M20K just 10 minutes from where this guy lived but did not know him. I found out today that he was on our hanger list to store the plane at our local airport.

UPDATE: I just realized this was @JJV7109 in which reached out to me via PM about my plane and Mooney transition training when he was looking for a plane earlier this year. Mine was in avionics at the time as I was going to take him up. He said he was ‘finishing up his commerical’ in March of this year. We spoke over PM a few more time but never met face-to-face. Prayers to his family.

Edited January 7, 2020 by Bryan

[Bryan]

https://www.feldhausmemorial.com/m/obituaries/Jonathan-Vannatta/

[carusoam]

RIP JJV...

We said Welcome aboard, only months ago...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[bradp]

Do we know if the pilot received transition training ? 

[Davidv]

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20191231X83852&AKey=1&RType=HTML&IType=FA

What a shame, I read his obituary above and he seemed like a very accomplished guy...two tours in Afghanistan in addition to everything else.

 

[carusoam]

Thanks for posting the initial report, David.

I read through it looking for any indications that the flaps were left in the down/landing position... or anything about the trim position...

Everything else seems in order, from eye-witness accounts, to main flight and engine controls all set and working properly...

It’s a tough read. I may have missed what I was looking for...

best regards,

-a-

 

 

[bradp]

A rather odd sequence of events.  Not normal profile from the takeoff roll but nothing obvious on examination of the wreckage.

One interesting lack of detail was that the trim position was not commented upon in the prelim.  

[larrynimmo]

Departure stall...

[bradp]

Sure sounds like it - but why? Are we back to out of trim condition as the primary hypothesis? Pilot incapacitated? 

[carusoam]

Was trim and flaps left out of the preliminary report for a reason?

This is a common error that could occur...

How the pilot responds to such a challenge may have erased the evidence...

The eye-witness described the take-off... that gives a hint to what to look for...

But still only an eye-witness...

Best regards,

-a-

[Davidv]

Maybe it was tough to tell trim position based on initial findings?  Given the pictures I’ve seen of the fire it may have been tough to tell the tail position in relation to the empenage.  Unlike other aircraft where it’s easy to see the trim tab position on the control surfaces this is a little bit different in our aircraft given the extensive damage.  Of course, detailed forensics once they collect all of the debris may make this possible but could be difficult at first...

Edited January 11, 2020 by Davidv

[aviatoreb]

A slipped seat, a less tall pilot and pilot grasping on the yoke can make for the same effect.

Edited January 11, 2020 by aviatoreb

[Hank]

4 hours ago, Davidv said:

Maybe it was tough to tell trim position based on initial findings?  Given the pictures I’ve seen of the fire it may have been tough to tell the tail position in relation to the empenage.  Unlike other aircraft where it’s easy to see the trim tab position on the control surfaces this is a little bit different in our aircraft given the extensive damage.  Of course, detailed forensics once they collect all of the debris may make this possible but could be difficult at first...

We have no trim tabs. But the position of the jack screw is easy to determine when it is removed and examined, just not at the scene. The tiny trim position indicator may be burned, broken, twisted out of position, but the jack screw will tell the tale.

[Davidv]

36 minutes ago, Hank said:

We have no trim tabs. But the position of the jack screw is easy to determine when it is removed and examined, just not at the scene. The tiny trim position indicator may be burned, broken, twisted out of position, but the jack screw will tell the tale.

Yes that was my thought, easier with aircraft with trim tabs but not ours.  Going to take some detailed reconstruction later.

[Hank]

32 minutes ago, Davidv said:

Yes that was my thought, easier with aircraft with trim tabs but not ours.  Going to take some detailed reconstruction later.

No reconstruction, just measure fhe exposed threads in the jackscrew. 

[gsxrpilot]

I'll bet the NTSB investigator dispatched, doesn't know to check the jack screw. With the fire, it was likely exposed and easy to see. And like @Hank said, just count the threads and you know where the trim was set. 

It would be nice to know if it was trim or seat rails. It seems like it has to be one or the other.

[Hank]

1 minute ago, gsxrpilot said:

I'll bet the NTSB investigator dispatched, doesn't know to check the jack screw. With the fire, it was likely exposed and easy to see. And like @Hank said, just count the threads and you know where the trim was set. 

It would be nice to know if it was trim or seat rails. It seems like it has to be one or the other.

Or flaps were full down. Did that once in my C--landed, back taxiied (no taxiway)  and took off for another practice landing. Not a good idea, and very happy that I only had 180hp and not 310!

[bradp]

I wonder if my seat track broke free if I’d have the ability / clear thinking to 1) let go the yoke abs or 2) push the yoke forward with a knee / foot. 
 

Seems like a good SOP is to use the Kerrville grab bar during departure like Paul. 

[Hank]

19 minutes ago, bradp said:

I wonder if my seat track broke free if I’d have the ability / clear thinking to 1) let go the yoke abs or 2) push the yoke forward with a knee / foot. 
 

Seems like a good SOP is to use the Kerrville grab bar during departure like Paul. 

During your next annual, pull the seats and inspect/clean the holes in the rails and inspect/replace the pins in the seat. Then you will know that they grab and hold.

[Skates97]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

During your next annual, pull the seats and inspect/clean the holes in the rails and inspect/replace the pins in the seat. Then you will know that they grab and hold.

I do this each year, take a pick and move it around in the holes and then vacuum out what was there. Those who haven't done it for awhile will be surprised. As the dust/dirt/etc gets accumulated in the holes and the pins pack it down over time it doesn't really "look" like there is much of anything in there, but there usually is.

[0TreeLemur]

I read this thread with heavy heart.   So sad.

During my instrument check ride, while shooting an ILS under the hood, I was "in the groove" with trim perfectly set for my 90 kt descent with no flaps (too fast for flaps in my '67C).  At 200 ft my examiner said "go around".   I advanced the throttle forward in about 2-seconds and was shocked by the amount of nose-up pitching moment caused by all that nose-up trim.   Hope I don't do that again.  (somehow I passed).

 It is not at all hard to imagine that with 300 HP and a lot of nose-up trim, it might be impossible for a human to push the nose over and prevent a departure stall.

To help get it all right on departure, I've been practicing the following pre-takeoff flow, from floor up in a counter-clockwise direction:

1. Fuel FULLEST TANK

2. Trim T/O

3. Flaps T/O

4. Cowl flaps OPEN

5. Prop HI RPM, mixture RICH

6. Landing Light & Strobes ON

7. Fuel pump ON

Go.

Do this flow every time to avoid forgetting anything.

[LANCECASPER]

Keeping a good grip on the throttle is good practice on take off after you've added full power. My seat slipped back once and as I slid back my hand pulled the throttle back to idle - it was a few seconds of getting it back in control on the ground and coming to a stop, but at least the airplane didn't take off that way.

[J0nathan225]

I've noticed, without ever consciously thinking about it, after landing I always reset trim to t/o and upon start up, flight control check and before take off I check the trim/flaps. 

Now to clean the seat tracks out! Very sad accident, hopefully we learn what happened though.