General maintenance billing question

[BrettKS]

So I have a C model that just got out of a hefty annual. I haven't had a great experience with the mechanic and on completion of the work, I got a bill that was multiple thousand more than quoted. I was given no notice of the underestimation of work for each job as the work progressed. Verbally the chief mechanic told me he quotes on the high end and wouldn't charge the difference if work came in over time. Now that the bill has been issued, he is denying that was said. Lesson learned there.

 

But on to my general question, what's to prevent a maintenance shop from quoting low and charging whatever they want. Based on the verbage of maintenance agreement, it just says quotes are subject to change, but what's to prevent a $3k quote being turned into $25k? (I know an extreme example). Just not sure how to approach a sketchy maintenance situation or what grounds I have to stand on.

[steingar]

Problem with working on old airplanes is you never know what you're going to find until you open them up.  Says me look over the itemized receipt.  Hell, post it up here, there are guys here who'll know whether or not they're padding something.  It is quite possible they aren't, could be they opened up the aircraft, found  mess and spent a bunch of time fixing it.

[jetdriven]

Only authorize the annual inspection items and put a limit on it.  Such as any additional repairs must get authorization and the initial authorization is for 3k only. 

[philiplane]

In the automotive world, you have to approve the repairs first, and if they do something unauthorized, or the cost is twice what you approved, you don't have to pay for it. 

Airplane service does not fall under the automotive consumer protection laws. It's still a "buyer beware" environment. So you should always specify that the inspection results be given to you, along with a list of discrepancies and the cost of repairs. From that list you can decide what to do, or not do. The best shops already do this. The small shops typically do not. The only thing preventing a $3k quote from becoming a $25k quote is YOU.

That said, bill padding is rare because it's not really necessary. We're working on 30 to 50 year old planes that don't owe anyone anything. There will always be a surprise expense simply because the planes are old. The most expensive annual is the one after buying an old plane that has been sitting, and flying the heck out of the "new to you" toy. You find all the neglected things that were wrong, and this is where you find internal engine problems due to inactivity. Cylinders self destruct, camshafts get wiped out, etc.

And so you should find a mechanic that inspects the plane, creates the estimate, and waits for your approval.

Edited September 5, 2019 by philiplane

[BrettKS]

I understand the above, but what about when an estimate is provided and work approved, then work goes way beyond (in terms of time/money) what was approved

[ilovecornfields]

This is what savvy aviation specializes in. You basically agree at the beginning to only approve what is on a written list at the prices on the list and require written approval for anything else. Very tedious and some shops don’t like this but it protects you from surprises.

I take the opposite approach. I trust my mechanic who I have been working with for years. He’ll call me if anything “unexpected” comes up and knows that otherwise I want everything fixed to his satisfaction. Not the cheapest approach, but I don’t cut corners when it comes to my family’s safety. I would much rather fix things when they are small than let them become big issues. Of course, you have to find a mechanic you trust who shares your values in order for this to work.

At the risk of stating the obvious, maybe find a different mechanic? Where are you located?

[BrettKS]

2 minutes ago, ilovecornfields said:

This is what savvy aviation specializes in. You basically agree at the beginning to only approve what is on a written list at the prices on the list and require written approval for anything else. Very tedious and some shops don’t like this but it protects you from surprises.

I take the opposite approach. I trust my mechanic who I have been working with for years. He’ll call me if anything “unexpected” comes up and knows that otherwise I want everything fixed to his satisfaction. Not the cheapest approach, but I don’t cut corners when it comes to my family’s safety. I would much rather fix things when they are small than let them become big issues. Of course, you have to find a mechanic you trust who shares your values in order for this to work.

At the risk of stating the obvious, maybe find a different mechanic? Where are you located?

Absolutely, different mechanic has been found and scheduled for next annual.

 

With the original mechanic the work was completed and annual signed off. I approved around $6k in work and bill came to over $8k with no additional approval from me or alert that jobs were taking longer than expected.  Additionally, some work that I specifically declined was nonetheless performed because the mechanic considered it airworthy issues, basically taking away my opportunity to use a different mechanic on the field or getting a ferry permit.

[gsxrpilot]

As I mentioned in another thread, you have to be comfortable and have a relationship with the shop that does your annual. I wouldn't take my plane in to any shop where the annual was a the first time they saw the plane. 

My 252 is in annual right now. There are plenty of good reputable shops here in Denver, but I flew it back to Texas so SWTA could do the annual. I know there won't be any surprises on the bill or in the airplane. 

If I was going to change shops, very unlikely, I would start at the new shop immediately after a fresh annual. Over the course of the next 12 months, the new shop and I can get to know each other. They can get to know the plane and will likely be dropping suggestions along the way of things that would have to be addressed "at some point". But because the plane is within annual, they can't ground it or hold me hostage. After a full year of courtship, they might get the annual, assuming it's gone well. 

For a newbie starting out with a first airplane, many of us here can suggest good reputable shops with reputations for honesty and good work. You might still be surprised your first time, but unlikely you'll be taken advantage of.

[Greg Ellis]

23 minutes ago, BrettKS said:

Absolutely, different mechanic has been found and scheduled for next annual.

 

With the original mechanic the work was completed and annual signed off. I approved around $6k in work and bill came to over $8k with no additional approval from me or alert that jobs were taking longer than expected.  Additionally, some work that I specifically declined was nonetheless performed because the mechanic considered it airworthy issues, basically taking away my opportunity to use a different mechanic on the field or getting a ferry permit.

From what you have described here, I think you were wise to find another mechanic for next time.  I do what others have said and only approve the annual inspection part of it and any squawks that need to be repaired are discussed with me prior to the repair for me to authorize it to be done.  I have a great relationship with the folks that work on my airplane and this is how they work, not just me expecting it.  It is their standard of business and I appreciate it.  Yes it can make it tedious especially if they are ready to do something and they cannot get a hold of you to authorize the work.  But in the end it makes for a happy customer and hopefully a happy mechanic that welcomes your repeat business.

For instance, my plane is currently in the shop for removal of cylinder #3 and either overhaul or replacement of this cylinder.  I also have a broken engine mount.  Other than cowl removal, not a wrench was turned until I approved this work.  Even though they new damn well that the cylinder work was needed and of course the engine mount would have to come off to be either repaired or replaced and the airplane was not going to fly again without this being done.  But they still took the time to contact me prior to the work.  And they have kept me in the loop ever since.  The same shop did my avionics for the ADS-B and my new panel.  They kept me in the loop with every step and the final cost was very close to what I was expecting and no surprises at all.

 

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, BrettKS said:

Absolutely, different mechanic has been found and scheduled for next annual.

 

With the original mechanic the work was completed and annual signed off. I approved around $6k in work and bill came to over $8k with no additional approval from me or alert that jobs were taking longer than expected.  Additionally, some work that I specifically declined was nonetheless performed because the mechanic considered it airworthy issues, basically taking away my opportunity to use a different mechanic on the field or getting a ferry permit.

That's exactly the sort of anti-team behavior that would induce me to take my business elsewhere.  Like @gsxrpilot said, it's a good idea to test the waters with any minor repair issues prior to an annual inspection to see if the shop is capable of having a good working relationship with you.

I have a working logbook (sorted copies of the actual logs) that I keep with the plane in case I have to deal with new shops if I'm AOG or away from home, and on the front page in big type I wrote "No work or repairs are authorized without a written itemized estimate and approval from the owner."  That way, there's no way they can deny I told them that at the beginning (which I would) or that they didn't know about it.

[DustinNwind]

My airplane is in annual right now, and every annual I do on any airplane I've ever own - I take time off from work and sit under the airplane with my mechanic. I like to see what's going on with the plane, how it works, and know everything that was touched. Very personal choice and something I worked on with my mechanic over the last 4 years - it's a relationship, and trust. Even LASAR let me do it. I know taking 4-5 days off work is hard for most, but I find it part of my budget and necessary. 

[thinwing]

1 hour ago, BrettKS said:

I understand the above, but what about when an estimate is provided and work approved, then work goes way beyond (in terms of time/money) what was approved

I understand your complaint...but as others have pointed out you have a 65 c model....think about that for a minute...that’s over 50 years...is your house or car that old?You mentioned you did not sign off on items that your mechanic felt were airworthiness items.Im guessing without being able to look over actual invoice ,it was these issues that caused the 2 k overrun.Am I right?If that was the case ,if you two absolutely disagreed on there severity,he could have signed off on annual with discrepancies...but that still leaves you having to address them later.My last annual went 4 k over due to unforeseen exaust issues ,so I feel your pain.Good luck with next annual...good mechanics are getting harder to find

[jaylw314]

3 minutes ago, thinwing said:

I understand your complaint...but as others have pointed out you have a 65 c model....think about that for a minute...that’s over 50 years...is your house or car that old?You mentioned you did not sign off on items that your mechanic felt were airworthiness items.Im guessing without being able to look over actual invoice ,it was these issues that caused the 2 k overrun.Am I right?If that was the case ,if you two absolutely disagreed on there severity,he could have signed off on annual with discrepancies...but that still leaves you having to address them later.My last annual went 4 k over due to unforeseen exaust issues ,so I feel your pain.Good luck with next annual...good mechanics are getting harder to find

Note that @BrettKS pointed out he was never allowed the opportunity to exercise his prerogative as an owner to refuse an "airworthiness repair" and ferry the plane elsewhere.  I admit, doing so may not have been a smart idea depending on the issue, but a shop that prevents me from exercising my rights as an owner is one that I wouldn't want to work with.  That prerogative if one of the (few) layers of protection against malfeasance by a mechanic, and while they might be rare and unusual, I wouldn't voluntarily give up that right and lose that.

Conversely, the two shops (an MSC and my home-field shop) I've used so far have both been completely fine with discussing repairs before proceeding, which probably took more time than drawing up an estimate, so I don't think finding shops willing to work together with owners requires getting super lucky.

[thinwing]

I agree,and in this case he has already voted with his check book about the lack of communication.He says he has already scheduled next years annual...I would never have thought of that!!!

[alextstone]

2 hours ago, jetdriven said:

Only authorize the annual inspection items and put a limit on it.  Such as any additional repairs must get authorization and the initial authorization is for 3k only. 

I assisted with the last annual and necessary repairs.  I learned a lot, personally witnessed the additional hours needed on some things and I know that the bill was correct as a result.  

[WilliamR]

To the Op, as someone noted earlier, there are no consumer protection laws like for autos.  Given the rep by the mechanic that he would eat any overage was verbal you don't have a lot of standing as I think you now realize.

For your question going forward, I send an e-mail to my maintenance shop asking for them to confirm the cost of the inspection and that no additional work is allowed to be performed without written approval by me.  I also ask that once the inspection is complete, I expect to receive an e-mail of all discrepancies and a general estimate of cost (parts are easy to estimate, time less so).  Only then can we discuss the items verbally.  Once discussed, I send an e-mail back to mechanic with a response item by item. 

If an estimate on an item needs to be revised I expect written communication and will provide a written response.

This is just a formalized version of what happens verbally. 

Btw, I have had shops not interested in communicating clearly and in writing.  I stay away from those.  NOTE, your issue has happened to me more than once including dealing with an MSC. 

Other than a lawyer you always have social media as a weapon should a mechanic do something not authorized.

William

[RobertGary1]

Don't let anyone touch your plane unless you are there. Even the MSC's will overbill hours. I was able to get numerous hours removed from a bill by showing documentation on when the guy went to lunch and what plane he worked on (while he was still logged in under mine).

-Robert

[skydvrboy]

5 hours ago, BrettKS said:

Additionally, some work that I specifically declined was nonetheless performed

This is the statement that would bother me.  Charges going a bit (within reason) over the estimate, no big deal, I've done this kind of work and I know how easy it is to go over an estimate.  But working on something he was told specifically not to work on is too much. 

If I didn't want to try to save the relationship, which it sounds like you've already decided, I wouldn't pay for these items.  I'd make a check out for the remainder, draft up a letter that states that amount is payment in full, and make him sign it if he wants paid.  You simply have no obligation, moral or legal, to pay for work that you specifically declined.

As Anthony says "Private Pilot only - not a legal, moral, or financial professional"

[RLCarter]

Like others have said, you and the shop have to be on the same page.   With out knowing what the additional 2k was for it’s hard to say if and how bad they got you, depending on what was done without authorization 2k can get spent pretty quick on parts alone then there is the labor to R&R. Shops/A&Ps/IAs are generally honest, but the one thing that I see on here and in person the most is the lack of communication (which works both ways). I believe it’s been said but once the bill is paid it’s extremely hard if not impossible to get money back from them

[Austintatious]

3 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

Don't let anyone touch your plane unless you are there. Even the MSC's will overbill hours. I was able to get numerous hours removed from a bill by showing documentation on when the guy went to lunch and what plane he worked on (while he was still logged in under mine).

-Robert

good god almighty.

[cliffy]

A little resurrection of this thread from last week-

There has always been confusion over just what an "Annual Inspection" is.

The regs say your airplane has to have an "Annual Inspection" every year and can't be flown unless it is "airworthy". These are two different requirements. Contained in what we actually do at the "Annual Inspection" are the inspection itself, "Servicing" of different systems (oil change, spark plug cleaning, etc) and "Repair" of unairworthy items found during the "INSPECTION"

An "inspection" is just that, period. Its an "INSPECTION". It was looked at by an IA. 

There is no requirement that the airplane be in an "airworthy condition" to have the "Annual Inspection" signed off as completed. The "Annual Inspection" can be completed and signed off as such and a list of discrepancies given to the owner of the airplane for "REPAIR" by someone else and it still meets the FAA requirement of being completed for that year (this can include ADs that need to be done). Likewise the "SERVICING" of the airplane is not an "ANNUAL INSPECTION" requirement to be done by the IA. That can also be done by someone else.

To say that the "ANNUAL INSPECTION" can't be signed off unless items of an "unairworthy" manner are fixed is just incorrect. 

Now, the IA doing the "Inspection" is required to look at your airplane and determine if it meets its "Type Certificate as built OR as altered or repaired by acceptable or approved methods" all the way back to its birth at the factory. He is signing that it does meet these requirements on the day he signs it off but not in the future. Anything he finds that doesn't meet that standard is a "repair" item before the airplane can be signed off as "AIRWORTHY". That's a separate sign off from the "ANNUAL INSPECTION". It can be as small as a required decal missing on the panel. How many of you know what decals are required to be in place on your airplane to pass the annual inspection? :-) Say, do ALL your seat belts have the FAA TSO tag still on them? 

If he is to do the "inspection" and not the repairs but just give you a list of those items, those items do not go in the aircraft log book. No requirement to do that. He's only required to give you a list of those discrepancies and say so in his log book sign off.  You can bet that the Feds would look for some kind of maintenance by an A&P to be signed off after this "annual completed" sign off to cover the phrase "a list of discrepancies has been given to the owner", before a flight is logged. You are responsible for getting them fixed per the regs. Now, this does mean that the airplane ain't flying anywhere unless you can get an A&P to secure a ferry permit to allow you to fly it to another airport for repairs. Or you can have them done on the same airport but by another shop or A&P.

It is always best to nail down just what is contained in the fee for the "annual inspection" (could some servicing items be contained therein?), what the charges are for "servicing" the airplane and what that entails and, then, the procedure to repair unairworthy items found on the "inspection". It's a 3 step process. 

Hope this helps clarify a cloudy subject

 

[Shadrach]

On 9/5/2019 at 12:09 PM, thinwing said:

I understand your complaint...but as others have pointed out you have a 65 c model....think about that for a minute...that’s over 50 years...is your house or car that old?You mentioned you did not sign off on items that your mechanic felt were airworthiness items.Im guessing without being able to look over actual invoice ,it was these issues that caused the 2 k overrun.Am I right?If that was the case ,if you two absolutely disagreed on there severity,he could have signed off on annual with discrepancies...but that still leaves you having to address them later.My last annual went 4 k over due to unforeseen exaust issues ,so I feel your pain.Good luck with next annual...good mechanics are getting harder to find

Let’s think about this (flawed IMO) analysis for a moment. When one builds a custom home there a many regulations and codes to be met. There are also unforeseen challenges as things progress. Should the builder just perform the task at hand without informing the client of the overages because the builder “felt” they were necessary and after all if you disagreed you’d still have to find another builder?   An annual inspection is not a complex process (way less than building a custom home). The item list is very defined. The items on that list are either airworthy or they are not. A case may be made to repair an item that is still airworthy but nearing the end of its life. That’s to be discussed with and decided by the owner. There may be “while we’re in there” items that are still airworthy but prudent to replace while another component is removed. That’s to be discussed with and decided by the owner. Any airplane is a collection of parts that were deemed airworthy during the previous annual. The year of manufacture has some bearing on the state of an aircraft’s condition but very little compared to how it has been maintained over its lifetime.  There is absolutely no justification for any job to go more than 10% over budget (much less 30%) without the person signing the check being made aware of what’s happened. It’s absolutely disrespectful to the consumer and it’s poor practice to allow it even if you don’t consider yourself a businesperson.

 

Edited September 9, 2019 by Shadrach

[PTK]

@BrettKS, sounds like you got a very comprehensive annual. Your 50 yo plane should be in tip top shape. Pay the bill and thank the mechanic for caring for your plane. It's becoming increasingly difficult to find good mechanics. Nickel and diming them after they have provided their services doesn't help either.

Having said that if you don't feel comfortable find someone else going forward. Communicate and come to an agreement that you want them to perform an inspection and produce a list of any discrepancies with estimates that you will approve or disapprove. You need to do a better job at managing the show.

[RobertGary1]

Also an annual inspection does not involve any repairs. Its just an inspection. What you do with that info is up to you. The IA only needs to sign that he performed the inspection and note any discrepancies. 

-Robert

[steingar]

In answer to the OPs stated question, what's to stop a shop from ripping off its customers is aviation is a really small world.  They might get away with doing this once or twice, but word will get around and they'll be shunned by anyone with skin in the game.  They might get work from absentee owners who just sign checks and let others manage their aircraft, but I suspect folks like that are getting thin on the ground.