Mooney Formation Aero-Camping in Canadian Wilderness

[201er]

Labor Day weekend trip to Canada with my wife and her mother. We departed Linden (notice the deer by the runway at high noon) and flew directly to Gatineau CYND just outside Ottawa in my Mooney M20J 201. We were met by Yves and his wife. Remember my return from my previous Canada trip where Yves invited me to fly his wing at Oshkosh while I coincidentally was flying over his house? Well, at Oshkosh, Yves and his friend Patrick invited me to their Casey camping fly in trip Labor Day weekend so I decided to go.

We got dinner with Yves and Ned in a fantastic restaurant and were served by Yves lovely daughter. In the morning the weather wasn't too great so we delayed a bit. But early in the afternoon we set off to Casey in formation down low to stay below the cloud deck. It was a pretty turbulent day and combined with the low altitude, it just was not practical to maintain tight formation so we kept it loose. Casey is an abandoned Military airport in the middle of the Canadian wilderness northeast of Ottawa, northwest of Montreal. Once a year, the Canadians have a big get together by flying into this well-paved runway in the middle of nowhere. A few spend the night camping but most arrive as a day trip on the Saturday or Sunday for the barbecue event. We found wild blueberries and my mother in-law especially enjoyed collecting them.

We watched the airplanes arrive by both land and water. Several seaplanes landed on the river beside the airport. There is no cell signal, phone service, electrical power, or anything out there. Only what you bring. So we enjoyed a night of camping and the barbecue and headed out the next day.

The return flight required us to get above the cloud deck so I climbed IFR in uncontrolled airspace on my own until I got high enough to be able to reach flight service and file a return flight plan in the air. I couldn't file on the ground due to the lack of communications. Luckily I had already made my US customs arrangements in advance and stuck to my time slot so those remained active. A quick flight back to Albany and we cleared customs and then onward to Linden to conclude the exciting 3 day trip.

 

[kmyfm20s]

Pretty awesome! I have been fortunate to have meet several people though this site that I regularly connect with and get together.

[elimansour]

Great video as usual!  

[drapo]

Almost met you up there, as I was supposed to go to Casey for the second time but the Mooney is still on the  sidelines. The second option would have been a 7 hours drive, most of those through gravel roads, so I decided to postpone the trip. Looks like you guy thouroughly enjoyed your night in Québec’s lower north wilderness !

[Simon Drouin]

Nice video Mike.  I just wanted to thank you so much for the help you gave me in Casey to start my engine.  I am quite new with this plane and it was the first time I had this problem. We were very far, no cellular, no phone, it was not the time to have problem to start the engine and we had to be back on the same day!!  If you have time, I would appreciate if you could re explain to me what happened or sent a site where I could read about that problem.  My mooney s friend back home did not believed me when I told them,  it was a guy from New York who helped me in Casey!!!

Thank you 

Simon

 

[201er]

3 hours ago, Simon Drouin said:

Nice video Mike.  I just wanted to thank you so much for the help you gave me in Casey to start my engine.  I am quite new with this plane and it was the first time I had this problem. We were very far, no cellular, no phone, it was not the time to have problem to start the engine and we had to be back on the same day!!  If you have time, I would appreciate if you could re explain to me what happened or sent a site where I could read about that problem.  My mooney s friend back home did not believed me when I told them,  it was a guy from New York who helped me in Casey!!!

Thank you 

Simon

Hi Simon, I'm glad I could help. Honestly, by the time you were on your second time around cranking I already noticed. Made a comment like "there goes the starter" to my wife and she told me to go over and help you. However, I didn't want to be "that guy" and embarrass you in front of your passengers with unsolicited advice. But after I saw you continue to struggle, I realized that getting your engine started without frying the starter was imperative.

By the time I got to you, the problem was that it was impossible to tell if it was starved or flooded because I could not know what you were doing with fuel beforehand. However, one thing I could tell (between the hour or two you spent on the ground and difficulty starting) was that you were getting vapor lock. One trick to turning the vapor gas back into liquid gas is to cool down the fuel lines with fuel. What you do is with the mixture at cutoff, run the boost pump on for about a minute to circulate liquid fuel through the fuel lines as coolant. Because the mixture is cut off, it will circulate but not flood your cylinders.

Then, once done, do a normal prime and start. Since it was difficult to tell if it was previously flooded or not, a bit of extra prime to guarantee it is flooded and a flooded start at full throttle was the way to go.

Also, that was a lot of cranking. It would have probably been better to go away for 10 minutes before trying again. In the future, if you can't get it started after a few tries, it really needs a cool down. Starters are pretty expensive to replace. Anyway, hope that helps.

Just my four half pennies.

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, 201er said:

Hi Simon, I'm glad I could help. Honestly, by the time you were on your second time around cranking I already noticed. Made a comment like "there goes the starter" to my wife and she told me to go over and help you. However, I didn't want to be "that guy" and embarrass you in front of your passengers with unsolicited advice. But after I saw you continue to struggle, I realized that getting your engine started without frying the starter was imperative.

By the time I got to you, the problem was that it was impossible to tell if it was starved or flooded because I could not know what you were doing with fuel beforehand. However, one thing I could tell (between the hour or two you spent on the ground and difficulty starting) was that you were getting vapor lock. One trick to turning the vapor gas back into liquid gas is to cool down the fuel lines with fuel. What you do is with the mixture at cutoff, run the boost pump on for about a minute to circulate liquid fuel through the fuel lines as coolant. Because the mixture is cut off, it will circulate but not flood your cylinders.

Then, once done, do a normal prime and start. Since it was difficult to tell if it was previously flooded or not, a bit of extra prime to guarantee it is flooded and a flooded start at full throttle was the way to go.

Also, that was a lot of cranking. It would have probably been better to go away for 10 minutes before trying again. In the future, if you can't get it started after a few tries, it really needs a cool down. Starters are pretty expensive to replace. Anyway, hope that helps.

Just my four half pennies.

How does fuel circulate in a Lycoming engine with a Bendix fuel system?  As far as I know only TCM fuel systems on TCM engine have the ability to recirculate fuel.

Clarence

[Danb]

Nice video Mr Explorer, you’ve had a bomb of a summer, between you and Mr Belview there will be a lot to rap about at the Summit 

[kmyfm20s]

17 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

How does fuel circulate in a Lycoming engine with a Bendix fuel system?  As far as I know only TCM fuel systems on TCM engine have the ability to recirculate fuel.

Clarence

It doesn’t recirculate the fuel but pressurizes the fuel lines pushing the fuel and air out the vent line if I recall. 

[Guest]

Just now, kmyfm20s said:

It doesn’t recirculate the fuel but pressurizes the fuel lines pushing the fuel and air out the vent line if I recall. 

The only way to circulate fuel in a Bendix fuel system is to put the mixture full rich and the throttle wide open and turn on the fuel pump.  Only once fuel flows through the flow divider and lines to the engine will the line cool off somewhat.

Clarence

[kmyfm20s]

9 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

The only way to circulate fuel in a Bendix fuel system is to put the mixture full rich and the throttle wide open and turn on the fuel pump.  Only once fuel flows through the flow divider and lines to the engine will the line cool off somewhat.

Clarence

I haven’t flown behind a Lycoming for several years now to recall the details of the fuel system. I used the same technique Mike describe and it alway worked when needed. Im sure the pressurized lines just help purge the air when you went to prime before starting. FWIW I always do hot starts with an open throttle and normal to a little extra prime and it always started on both types of engine for me. When I had my J I only had to do the technique described by Mike if is was really stubborn and that wasn’t very often. 

[drapo]

I'll side with Clarence on this one! Looking at the schematics of the fuel system, using the boost pump without adding mixture won't create a flow out of the metering chamber towards the «spider», thus no cooling effect.

As I read it, the only way to get something out of the metering chamber and into the «spider» is to use the mixture.

But, as someone once said on this site, PP thoughts only  and I can be proven wrong!

[steingar]

How unusual, a giant asphalt runway in the middle of the wilderness!  Where I went in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan was fairly remote, but nothing like that!  And of course the field was short, grass, and rough.  My landings (had to go around once) sucked, and my takeoff wasn't much better.

[PaulM]

19 hours ago, 201er said:

One trick to turning the vapor gas back into liquid gas is to cool down the fuel lines with fuel. What you do is with the mixture at cutoff, run the boost pump on for about a minute to circulate liquid fuel through the fuel lines as coolant. Because the mixture is cut off, it will circulate but not flood your cylinders.

Mike,

  Isn't the J a Lycoming?..  the circulate fuel with the boost pump to cool fuel is continental specific as they have a return line.. Lyc's don't have that line. 

We discuss this in a Bravo thread.. 
 

https://mooneyspace.com/topic/19340-vapor-lock-in-bravo/

 

 

Simon,

   If this is a new issue, then you should have your mag's checked... I had an issue with the starter(left) mag points failing.  It would start totally cold.. but all warm/hot starts were nearly impossible  after years of perfect starts.. so if this problem was new to you, you might look at the mags. 

 

[201er]

1 minute ago, PaulM said:

Simon,

   If this is a new issue, then you should have your mag's checked... I had an issue with the starter(left) mag points failing.  It would start totally cold.. but all warm/hot starts were nearly impossible  after years of perfect starts.. so if this problem was new to you, you might look at the mags. 

 

Oh that's a good point. One time I had a lot of trouble on starts and even cold starts. Starter was cranking. So it was an impulse coupling problem and it needed replacement to solve the issue.

[Mcstealth]

On 9/2/2019 at 12:24 PM, Simon Drouin said:

Nice video Mike.  I just wanted to thank you so much for the help you gave me in Casey to start my engine.  I am quite new with this plane and it was the first time I had this problem. We were very far, no cellular, no phone, it was not the time to have problem to start the engine and we had to be back on the same day!!  If you have time, I would appreciate if you could re explain to me what happened or sent a site where I could read about that problem.  My mooney s friend back home did not believed me when I told them,  it was a guy from New York who helped me in Casey!!!

Thank you 

Simon

 

Please excuse the uncouth. :} :}

Welcome to the forum. Please post a new thread and tell us about yourself.

David

[RogueOne]

What a cool trip!  Beautiful video. Some nice airmanship on display. Marvel at ability to do a night landing into that unlit field. Well done all. Blue berries looked yummy!  Sweet scooter too. Germany and Switzerland have E-scooters and bikes literally everywhere. Coming to America in droves soon. Quiet efficient transportation. Perfect for city ground coverage. 

[mike_elliott]

Hi Simon, glad Mike was able to help you get out of the woods on this.

While I currently dont have an IO360, I have more than a few starts under my belt with one. a couple of notes

1) As suggested, make sure your mags are up to snuff, impulse coupling good.

2) If hot, 1/4" of MP, Mixture idle cutoff boost on to pressurize line. You will not be circulating fuel to cool down the pump or anything else, just packing pressure in the line. Once your FP reaches max, turn off pump, Crank. after 4 blades, slowly advance mixture to full rich. This process should take about 5-10 government seconds. It should find an air/fuel mixture it is happy with and fire.

3) IF COLD 3-8 seconds of boost with Mixture full rich, then idle cutoff. Crank, advance mixture to full after engine fires. The colder the outside temp, the longer the boost.

4) IF STILL NO FIRE - use Flooded procedure below

5) Flooded Procedure - flood engine with 10-15 sec of boost pump mixture full open. This way you KNOW what state the air fuel mixture is in. MIxture idle cutoff, Manifold pressure full open. Crank. Slowly bring MP back to 1/2 way open while cranking. stop at 1/2 way while cranking. Once fired, retard MP to idle, and advance mixture to full.