Prospective Mooney Buyer, Fair Price?

[bradp]

Right - Jimmy knows the valuations of Mooney's better than pretty much anyone else.

The AA listing - nice airframe.  Still needs 2020 (and I'd posit dump loran, add WAAS) so it's not without it's downsides either.

It has a low time engine and a decent autopilot

It is bloated in terms or weight for some reason - it has the 2900# GW increase but still somehow only has 959 useful.  I bet a lot of that loss is due to avionics / autopilot. 

The presence or absence of speed brakes make no difference to me - they are not needed on a J and are one more thing to fix

[Derek]

6 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I'd want to know the history over the last five years. Has it always been current and in annual? Have any annuals lapsed? And how many hours were flown between each of the list five annuals.

From the pictures, it looks like a hangar queen, which is good for somethings, but not good for the engine.

I went through the logs, in the last 5 years it hasn't missed any annuals. It did miss one in 2012. Other than that there is an annual every year.

The average hours per year is 37.5 while the median is 22.45.

In recent years, here are the hours since the last annual:

2019 = 10.5
2018 = 11.7
2017 = 5.8
2016 = 25.2
2015 = 21.7
2014 = 21.7

There were a few years where there were 0.4, 2.4, 4.9, and 6 hours.
1991-93 were much higher: 150 plus, and I saw 100 hour inspections in there, so I believe its mission definitely changed.

late '90s were 40 or so hours per year, in the 2000s it drops down  to 2-10 hours per year until 2010 where things start to come up to the 20s.

Edited August 22, 2019 by Derek

[gsxrpilot]

4 minutes ago, Derek said:

I went through the logs, in the last 5 years it hasn't missed any annuals. It did miss one in 2012. Other than that there is an annual every year.

The average hours per year is 38.5 while the median is 22.9.

In recent years, here are the hours since the last annual:
2018 = 11.7
2017 = 5.8
2016 = 25.2
2015 = 21.7
2014 = 21.7

There were a few years where there were 0.4, 2.4, 4.9, and 6 hours.
1991-93 were much higher: 150 plus, and I saw 100 hour inspections in there, so I believe its mission definitely changed.

late '90s were 40 or so hours per year, in the 2000s it drops down  to 2-10 hours per year until 2010 where things start to come up to the 20s.

Good job researching... I wouldn't trust that engine. I know, free country and all that, but it's a damn shame to let such a nice airplane just go to waste like that. 

I hope I have the good sense not to let the same happen to my Mooney. I should give someone power of attorney where if my flying ever drops below 100 hours per year, they have authority to make someone else a set of keys, just to keep it flying.

Someone, maybe Derek, with deep enough pockets should buy that plane, hang a new engine on the nose and put $50K into the panel. You'd have to fly it for 10 years and you'd only get half of that money back, but you'd enjoy the hell out of that airplane.

[toto]

8 hours ago, Aerodon said:

And I think its been pointed out that only plane owners seem hell bent on maintaining value, whereas car and boat owners routinely accept a reasonable depreciation on the asset as part of the cost of having something nice to drive / sail?

This is a key part of our collective delusion.  We buy a plane for X, spend X/10 every year on it, and spend X/2 every ten years or so on a big upgrade project.  By the time we're ready to sell, we've spent 3X on the bird, but we still tell ourselves that we bought it for X, and that airplanes appreciate over time.... so if we sell for 1.0000001X, we've made a profit, and we can confidently spend more money on the next one.  It's an investment

[toto]

10 hours ago, Derek said:

I'm looking to buy a M20. At it's face, Does this seem like a fair price? Should I be suspicious?

145k for a 1990 M20J with 1050TT

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=&make=MOONEY&model=M20J+201&listing_id=2364151&s-type=aircraft&s-seq=1&s-lvl=4

To echo all of the comments made previously..  Buy the plane you want at a price you can afford.  Make sure you've got enough money in the bank to overhaul the engine.  If you've flown it for a year with no problems, good compressions, and clean oil samples, put the overhaul money into the panel and fly it even more.

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard, Derek...

Let’s define fair price...

1) The price listed is a premium price for an M20J, But is it fair?

2) The PPI is the best way to find out that the plane meets what the ad said.

3) To know what a fair price is, compare to a very similar machine. Another nice M20J like that should work...

4) AAA is a great resource for comparison shopping. Pics and quality descriptions...

5) prices on all Mooneys have been trending up to where we were a dozen years ago...

6) Do your homework to prove to yourself that the price is fair, and the quality is good too...

Any plane buying experience yet?

Good luck with your hunt.

PP thoughts only, not a sales guy...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[ArtVandelay]

I went through the logs, in the last 5 years it hasn't missed any annuals. It did miss one in 2012. Other than that there is an annual every year.
The average hours per year is 37.5 while the median is 22.45.
In recent years, here are the hours since the last annual:
2019 = 10.5
2018 = 11.7
2017 = 5.8
2016 = 25.2
2015 = 21.7
2014 = 21.7
There were a few years where there were 0.4, 2.4, 4.9, and 6 hours.
1991-93 were much higher: 150 plus, and I saw 100 hour inspections in there, so I believe its mission definitely changed.
late '90s were 40 or so hours per year, in the 2000s it drops down  to 2-10 hours per year until 2010 where things start to come up to the 20s.

Mine had similar usage numbers, and other than annual entries it had no repairs or other maintenance in the logs. I was able to fly it 700 hours before overhaul was necessary. But I had to overhaul or replaced with new the boost pump, gear motor, muffler, starter in the first 2 years of ownership.


Tom

[carusoam]

To match the low usage numbers to what it means...

they could be half hour flights intentionally spreading out the minimum hours... spread out evenly over the year...

Or they could be an annual flight or two made in one month, followed by sitting idle...

Maybe the engine is so well loved, it gets connected to a dehumidifier at the end of each flight...

Planes that don’t fly often have a tendency to collect a variety of failures...

A plane that sits indoors in a dry environment isn’t doomed automatically...

Read up on PPIs and how to minimize the risks of buying an underused plane... at least be aware of what the risks are...

Best regards,

-a-

[Yetti]

8 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

Mine had similar usage numbers, and other than annual entries it had no repairs or other maintenance in the logs. I was able to fly it 700 hours before overhaul was necessary. But I had to overhaul or replaced with new the boost pump, gear motor, muffler, starter in the first 2 years of ownership.


Tom

So it bears repeating.    Don't worry so much about the purchase price.   You are going to spend alot to maintain.....