Story - Near Midair with same Cirrus TWICE

[whiskytango]

3 hours ago, bradp said:

I like cirrus as an aircraft idea - on paper it would do better for my mission.   No hate for cirrus drivers in general.  Everyone has a reputation- Mooney too miserly to properly take care of their planes want more for less. Cirrus horrible sticks... some of it is deserved and some of it isn’t. 

@201er There’s a similar thread over on beechtalk about a purposeful cutoff of a member by an instructor with a student in the pattern in Florida.  Read that for comparison  I’ll see if I can find the link.

This makes me recall quite vividly a flight to OXB when I was flying a rental 172.  I was meeting another friend who was also flying a 172.  I was making radio calls and entering on a 45 for a left downwind to 32.   As I get established on d/w I find a NORDO twin cessna, white with blue and yellow stripes about 100 ft below me.  He makes a short approach to land.  I had never been so pissed off in an airplane for the balsiness and stupidity of the whole thing.  I was going to words with the guy but he never shut down.  Instead a few little kids and an adult climb off the back wing with the engine running and off he goes no radios again.  Holy $hit people are stupid and just don't get the seriousness of what we do.  

Mike how sure are you that it wasn’t a know nothing student in a fancy plane? 

Best you could do is file an ASRS (not for cya but for shared safety reporting purposes).  I’m sure that the 801/501/GND shelves in close proximity invariably had something to do with the loss of separation. 

If I were you I would call the flight school that owns the aircraft and talk to Richard Greene or whomever about a clear violation of 91.111.  Ask them to look into it for purposes of improving safety and ask them to follow up with you for a resolution.  If it’s an instructor flight it’s pretty egregious.  If it’s a student solo it’s pretty bad and they student needs help.  If a rental flight they can talk to the pilot as the plane and the way it is flown reflect poorly on their company.  If they are jerks tell them you’re going to talk to their FSDO - they are a 141 school so you’ll get somewhere with that stick .  

My experience with a multiple close-call situation involved a taildragger doing pattern work.  I called downwind, base and base to final, and never heard anything from the taildragger that cut me off on final.  I went around.  The taildragger then managed to cut me off again when I was re-established on downwind.  I turned to avoid her and extended the downwind and eventually landed.  While taxiing in I made a call "to the taildragger who cut off the Mooney two times, a little situational awareness would be greatly appreciated".  Crickets.  I later found out from a local at the airport that she was flying a NORDO Aeronca and had a history of cutting people off in the pattern.  A NORDO aircraft and poor SA is a recipe for disaster.  I suspect that the people who are flying NORDO aircraft won't do ADS-B out, and we still won't know where they are.

[bradp]

19 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

We all have political viewpoints on many things.  I have viewpoints on US politics.  I also have viewpoints on Andrés Obrador, Justin Trudeau, The CHRC, as well as policies of several of the provincial governments in Canada.   I could not care less with whose politics mine align.  Oh wait, one thing I care even less about is with whom your politics align.  You seem to be insinuating that your politics are some sort of bar by which to measure appropriate political messaging on an aircraft forum (how humble).  I've seen little to know constructive political discourse on this forum. Mostly it degrades into tribal talking points, platitudes with the occasional snarky retort peppered with an Ad Hominem attack on a member or the politician they appear to support.  It is not constructive.  It is not what this board is about. And it has caused rifts in the past. Most importantly it has driven away quality posters that have checked out due to political content. 

Ross all I'm saying is that there is a diversity of views and ideas.  Agree politics not the place here.  Also feel a need to defend that people can have different view without being labeled pro- or anti- Anything.  It's critically important to avoid monikers such as what is "pro-" or "anti-" American on an international aviation forum.  Doc's contributions are critically important here.  My viewpoints are no better or worse than anyone else's on the forum.  We're all on the same team. 

[eman1200]

FOCUS, people.

[Shadrach]

6 minutes ago, bradp said:

Ross all I'm saying is that there is a diversity of views and ideas.  Agree politics not the place here.  Also feel a need to defend that people can have different view without being labeled pro- or anti- Anything.  It's critically important to avoid monikers such as what is "pro-" or "anti-" American on an international aviation forum.  Doc's contributions are critically important here.  My viewpoints are no better or worse than anyone else's on the forum.  We're all on the same team here. 

Apparently exceptions can be made for suggeting this board is universally anti anything Cirrus...

[bradp]

Or we might invite an impromptu intercept by one...

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, whiskytango said:

My experience with a multiple close-call situation involved a taildragger doing pattern work.  I called downwind, base and base to final, and never heard anything from the taildragger that cut me off on final.  I went around.  The taildragger then managed to cut me off again when I was re-established on downwind.  I turned to avoid her and extended the downwind and eventually landed.  While taxiing in I made a call "to the taildragger who cut off the Mooney two times, a little situational awareness would be greatly appreciated".  Crickets.  I later found out from a local at the airport that she was flying a NORDO Aeronca and had a history of cutting people off in the pattern.  A NORDO aircraft and poor SA is a recipe for disaster.  I suspect that the people who are flying NORDO aircraft won't do ADS-B out, and we still won't know where they are.

So, I have a bit of time in a both Aeronca Chiefs, Champs and their more modern derivations. Flying low horsepower Champs and the like, NORDO, used to be a common thing around rural airports. I used a handheld as many aircraft from that era have no electrical systems. Both pilots have responsibility to see and avoid. Every aircraft has blind spots. In the Mooney I would never put the onus on a low and slow high wing to see me first. If a Champ or Chief is cutting you off in the pattern while you are flying a Mooney, they were either closer to airport or are equipped with JATO’s. I remember a few years back a C150 “cut off” an F16 over Monks Corner, SC. The Cessna wasn’t talking to center during their climb out. Poor SA on their part...

Edited July 4, 2019 by Shadrach

[pinerunner]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

So, I have a bit of time in a both Aeronca Chiefs, Champs and their more modern derivations. Flying low horsepower Champs and the like, NORDO, used to be a common thing around rural airports. I used a handheld as many aircraft from that era have no electrical systems. Both pilots have responsibility to see and avoid. Every aircraft has blind spots. In the Mooney I would never put the onus on a low and slow high wing to see me first. If a Champ or Chief is cutting you off in the pattern while you are flying a Mooney, they were either closer to airport or are equipped with JATO’s. I remember a few years back a C150 “cut off” an F16 over Monks Corner, SC. The Cessna wasn’t talking to center during their climb out. Poor SA on his part...

Keep in mind that at an uncontrolled airport there's no requirement to have and use a radio. Of course you should and should learn to do it as professionally as possible but you still need to be vigilant and on the lookout for the user who shows up without a radio or just doesn't know how to use it. We don't have a moral high ground over the Piper Cub. 

Entering the pattern behind you and then turning an early base to cut you off does earn him an even stronger epiphet than jerk in my book though. 

Edited July 4, 2019 by pinerunner

[bradp]

One lesson I learned volunteering for my local flight school selling rides at an Airport Day / airshow was to try to be just as vigilant on the ground as in the air.  They had a special ceremony at the end of the airshow celebrating the oldest living still flying female pilot - maybe it was just in the state of Virginia I can't recall.  This celebrated pilot was flying a Nordo vintage cessna taildragger (I can't recall whether it was a 120 or 140 but it was classy polished silver and red).  However, at the conclusion of the day's activities the airplanes were coordinating for departure off the single runway using CTAF figuring everyone else was on the radio as well.  The celebrated aviatrix in the nose high cessna didn't see (and couldn't hear) the low-stance lancair in front of her and taxied right through the empennage, cutting off the tail.  I also recall that airshow was fun because in exchange for my selling tickets I got a lesson in an R-44 on the way back home.

[Shadrach]

28 minutes ago, pinerunner said:

Keep in mind that at an uncontrolled airport there's no requirement to have and use a radio. Of course you should and should learn to do it as professionally as possible but you still need to be vigilant and on the lookout for the user who shows up without a radio or just doesn't know how to use it. We don't have a moral high ground over the Piper Cub. 

Entering the pattern behind you and then turning an early base to cut you off does earn him an even stronger epiphet than jerk in my book though. 

My post was tongue and cheek. I think the Monks Corner incident was a $hitshow that killed two unsuspecting pilots who did almost nothing to contribute to the accident other than be present. 

I like that we still have the ability to conduct flight ops a la 1935 in the very same vintage aircraft of the day . Doing it is like literally going back in time.

 

[David Lloyd]

I remember a few years back a C150 “cut off” an F16 over Monks Corner, SC. The Cessna wasn’t talking to center during their climb out. Poor SA on his part...

Go read the report.  C150 was pretty much going straight.  F16 was being vectored but slow to respond to turns given by ATC.  That slow response resulted in the F16 hitting the Cessna.  If that 90 knot Cessna driver had known what was taking place, it is unlikely he could have taken any deliberate action to get out of the way of a 250 knot jet.

[amillet]

On 7/3/2019 at 1:09 PM, steingar said:

psittacine

Thank you @steingar  I added a word to my vocabulary. 

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, David Lloyd said:

I remember a few years back a C150 “cut off” an F16 over Monks Corner, SC. The Cessna wasn’t talking to center during their climb out. Poor SA on his part...

Go read the report.  C150 was pretty much going straight.  F16 was being vectored but slow to respond to turns given by ATC.  That slow response resulted in the F16 hitting the Cessna.  If that 90 knot Cessna driver had known what was taking place, it is unlikely he could have taken any deliberate action to get out of the way of a 250 knot jet.

Does anyone get sarcasm anymore...?

go read the thread and you’ll see I agreed with all of the above.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

As are anti-Americanism, anti-Mooneyism, and pro-Comancheism from you.  

This place is called MooneySpace, after all.  

As for Cirrus I like them personally.  Our long time Mooney companion suits me better, though. 

Jim

With all due respect Jim,

I’m not anti American,  I may not agree with policies of your government, just as I don’t agree with policies of my government, that doesn’t make me dislike the American or Canadian people. 

I did once say in a post that “We get the governments we deserve”  I didn’t think that was a controversial statement.

As the owner of one of only 2 MSC’s in Canada it would be hard for me to be anti Mooney.  If I were anti Mooney as you suggest, do you really think I’d spend as much time as I do here digging out manual pages, finding documents etc. and posting them here, or spend time  looking at posted pictures, pointing out errors and suggesting solutions to their troubles.  I learn as much reading posts and hopefully share things I’ve learned along the way.

I’ve answered people’s questions both privately and publicly when asked about vintage Mooneys and vintage Comanches with honesty based on my 35 years of maintenance experience and ownership of several of both types.  If that causes grief I’m truly sorry.  Even other respected posters here have directed people to me privately with questions comparing the 2 types, which I happily answer.

I make my living maintaining all types of GA aircraft, it happens to be that Cirrus airframes make up the greatest number in my customer base, that doesn’t make me like them more or less than any other type.

Regards,

Clarence

[jaylw314]

3 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Just calling it like it see it, Clarence.  I’ve been here from the beginning and have read most if not all of your posts.  You often are the first to politicize otherwise apolitical threads with subtle criticisms of U.S. politics.  No one here is bashing on Canada. It is what it is. Just own it.  And no one here wants to hear how your Comanche is better than our Mooneys.  Even if it is.  

I only commented at all because you posted that this site is often anti-Cirrus.  I never say anything negative about any airplane, personally,  but this is in fact a website for Mooney enthusiasts.  It is THE place on the Internet for Mooney enthusiasts to brag about the virtues of their airplanes.  If you continue to struggle with remembering that I will continue to remind you.  

Jim

Wow.  I can't say I've perceived any of those patterns you say you can see in @M20Doc's posts.  To the contrary, when there is a Mooney-related problem, I think he's usually been the first one chiming in with helpful, specific information, if not the outright answer.

You are free to form your own opinions, of course, but don't presume to think that your opinions should be held as facts by others, nor should you presume to think that you speak for all others.

[Tommy]

6 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Just calling it like it see it, Clarence.  I’ve been here from the beginning and have read most if not all of your posts.  You often are the first to politicize otherwise apolitical threads with subtle criticisms of U.S. politics.  No one here is bashing on Canada. It is what it is. Just own it.  And no one here wants to hear how your Comanche is better than our Mooneys.  Even if it is.  

I only commented at all because you posted that this site is often anti-Cirrus.  I never say anything negative about any airplane, personally,  but this is in fact a website for Mooney enthusiasts.  It is THE place on the Internet for Mooney enthusiasts to brag about the virtues of their airplanes.  If you continue to struggle with remembering that I will continue to remind you.  

Jim

Anti-your-political-view-point is very different from anti-American. Know the difference and get it right, Jim... 

And, no, I am a Mooney enthusiasts but I don't brag about Mooney nor denigrate other aircraft. You are speaking for yourself. 

 

Edited July 5, 2019 by Tommy

[EricJ]

I'm coming in a little late and haven't watched the vid yet, but https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/  has a function for reporting other pilots, etc., etc.   I've used it once before for that purpose.  This might be one of those times.

 

[steingar]

22 hours ago, whiskytango said:

My experience with a multiple close-call situation involve I later found out from a local at the airport that she was flying a NORDO Aeronca and had a history of cutting people off in the pattern.  A NORDO aircraft and poor SA is a recipe for disaster.  I suspect that the people who are flying NORDO aircraft won't do ADS-B out, and we still won't know where they are.

I really don't think there's a good reason for aircraft to be NORDO.  Handhelds are cheap in this day and age.

[steingar]

17 hours ago, amillet said:

Thank you @steingar  I added a word to my vocabulary. 

Always glad to be of assistance.

[Tom]

On 7/4/2019 at 6:31 AM, DXB said:

It's a fair point that saying nothing upon entering the pattern is an error made by both planes. But saying nothing at all seems a far more hazardous error by the Cirrus, in addition to flying in very close proximity to the Mooney followed by cutting him off in the pattern. Totally a jerk move.  It's bizarre to  simply assume someone at TPA on downwind is not landing but rather leaving the pattern so that's probably not what happened.  One could reasonably argue calling someone a jerk on CTAF equalizes he scales here, but that point seems to be an afterthought to the initial conflict.  I probably would have held my tongue in the air but called him far worse once on the ground.  

Consider the circumstance where a slow Cessna forgot to or simply didn't call takeoff from the runway in question, turned crosswind, then, just as the Cessna was turning downwind, the Cessna sees a Mooney barreling into the downwind leg, maybe almost atop of the Cessna...and the Cessna makes a call to complain.  In this circumstance the Mooney's behavior, to the point of possible collision, is 100% analogous to the behavior of the Cirrus in actual incident---but its also the exact flight path/no call since 5 miles that Mooney conducted vs the Cirrus.  Thus it's sort of pointless, to me, to ascribe "more" hazardous behavior unless one is a prosecutor or plaintiff's attorney trying to somehow ascribe greater guilt to one party or another.  If the planes had actually met the accident report would have been simple "failure of both pilots to see and avoid, contributing factor inadequate radio calls by both parties..." [plus other random stuff because it doesn't look like NTSB is working hard if they provide only one sentence reports].

The only event that could have easily cost lives in Mooney vs. Cirrus was the initial engagement of both planes adjacent to the departure numbers.  Both 100% equally responsible.  The rest is soap opera where it's very possible that the Cirrus cut off the Mooney to land, but it's 100% certain that Mooney f'd up with the jerk radio call.  Frankly if I were OP I wouldn't want the video, as posted, seen by FAA.  Per AC-90-66B "Non-towered airport flight operations"
10.7 Disagreements. Do not correct other pilots on frequency (unless it is safety critical), particularly if you are aware you are correcting a student pilot [my emphasis]. If you disagree with what another pilot is doing, operate your aircraft safely, communicate as necessary, clarify their intentions and, if you feel you must discuss operations with another pilot, wait until you are on the ground to have that discussion.

Depending on which metrics one wants to cite, 30 to greater than 50% of fatal accidents occur during the landing phase.  This phase of flight generally requires the most situational awareness capacity.  IF the initial close-call between Mooney and Cirrus was a surprise to both pilots, then it's ordinarily assumed that both pilots would be suffering from a bit of a helmet fire (depletion of cognitive capacity).  Mooney clearly had a smoldering helmet fire that spilled out into the "jerk" radio call which only serves the purpose of inflaming a fire in the other cockpit.  This primitive behavior* is understandable, but doesn't have a place in flight.  One doesn't have to agree with this concept, but it's standard human factors stuff and the regs on this subject by all accounts are strongly based on theory and evidence. 

*I highly recommend the book "Mistakes Were Made (But Not by Me)" to anyone.  As the Amazon reviews state, the book should be required reading for everyone who lives in civilization.  It reviews the human factors issue most depicted in the video. 

Regarding downwind departures.  I'm not familiar with Linden but I routinely fly from one airport to another, both deltas whose airspace basically touches, where, depending on winds, it's normative to depart on the downwind to the other airport.  I did it this morning (before tower opened, and I made my calls). 

Edited July 5, 2019 by Tom

[Hank]

I make downwind departures, too, @Tom, but I never assume any plane i see on downwind is leaving--if anything, I suppose that it's landing. Regardless, I watch it and make sure I avoid it. 

[PTK]

 

5 hours ago, Tom said:

...Frankly if I were OP I wouldn't want the video, as posted, seen by FAA.  Per AC-90-66B...

Another detail that has not been discussed is that of pattern entry in an uncontrolled field. There are guidelines whose purpose is separation. But they have to be followed. It appears the op did not adhere to any of the guidelines. The preferred pattern entry to an uncontrolled field is midfield on a 45. Aircraft entering by the alternative direct method are advised to yield to those on 45. In both cases entry should be midfield. The cirrus entered on a 45 but the Mooney didn’t. He entered unannounced straight into dw. Not even midfield. It is conceivable and entirely possible the Cirrus pilot was expecting the Mooney to also be entering on a 45 and behind him. This would have provided plenty of separation.

I agree the op’s self-aggrandizing video doesn’t help his case and should not be on a public forum.

[DXB]

42 minutes ago, PTK said:

Another detail that has not been discussed is that the preferred pattern entry to an uncontrolled field is midfield on a 45. Aircraft entering by the alternative direct method are advised to yield to those on 45. In both cases entry should be midfield. The cirrus entered on a 45 but the Mooney didn’t. He entered unannounced straight into dw. Not even midfield. It is entirely possible the Cirrus pilot was expecting the Mooney to also be entering on a 45 and behind him providing plenty of separation. I agree the op’s self-aggrandizing video doesn’t help his case and should not be on a public forum.

I'm aware of no rule prohibiting a direct downwind entry.  I use it if convenient for my direction of flight, assuming I've been able to listen for a while, make standard calls, and have not heard or seen any potentially conflicting traffic in the pattern.  How  does one yield to someone entering on the 45 if that person isn't talking at all and isn't seen?  The Cirrus wasn't communicating at all, possibly after getting a late frequency change, and so can have no reasonable expectation of anything. The Cirrus was also in a better position to see Mooney. 

I found the video informatively forthright, not self-aggrandizing at all, and would encourage similar posts.  I would not encourage calling people names in the pattern.

[PTK]

13 minutes ago, DXB said:

...I found the video informatively forthright,...

It was informative as to what NOT to do. I would encourage the op to try and contact the Cirrus pilot. Apologize to him and discuss what happened. I’m sure they can both learn from it. And if he is an instructor that’s even better. He can give the op some advice and review things. That’d be good for both of them going forward. 

[DXB]

Just now, PTK said:

It was informative as to what NOT to do. I would encourage the op to try and contact the Cirrus pilot. Apologize to him and discuss what happened. I’m sure they can both learn from it. And if he is an instructor that’s even better. He can give the op some advice and review things. That’d be good for both of them going forward. 

[irishpilot]

everyone, let's keep this discussion focused. 

@201er, I appreciate your thread start, but for the Safety forum, please do not post links to personal blog/vlogs unless they have safety-focused content. For general commenting, I recommend the general forum. However, your post is leading to discussion relating to GA uncontrolled patterns and what is considered procedure vs preference, which is good. 

For everyone, please refrain from generalizing types of pilots by the plane they fly. For example, "all Cirrus or all Mooney pilots do....". 

Also, one more tip when talking safety - emotions do not help. Discussion needs to be objective with arguments backed by CFRs, AD, SD, NTSB, or other published guidelines or procedures. I know this is sometimes difficult when you are personally involved in a near mis, or other safety incident. 

Thanks for reading and stay safe!