Advice for the new guy?

[jakearey]

 

Hey guys! My name is Jake. I live in Central Arkansas and am a brand new PP.  As you will notice, this is my very first post. I have been lurking and reading for months and tonight finally wanted to take the dive in.  I do have a few questions for all of you and I’ll get to those momentarily. A little bit of back ground first as I feel it matters;  everything thing does, right?  I am 30, not married but have a great girl that loves to fly and is very supportive.  I got my ticket in December of 18, after about 53 hours.   It took 5 months due to weather and lengthy annual on the club plane I was using for training.  I now have around 82-85 hours.   My dads very best friend is a retired Air Force Colonel. He has somewhere around 9k hours. He was a flight instructor for 16’s, 22’s and 35’s and now works for a gov contractor running a squad that does adversary training.  He took me on my first flight back in May in his 62 C.   He let me get a feel for it and I loved it so much that I started lessons the next week. 7 months later and I am now a private pilot,  very cool and so thankful that he got me into flying.  

Ok, so here is the cool part.  Col. still has the C that he has owned for 10 years.  Because of his job he doesn’t get to fly it much anymore and he has agreed to let me keep it in Arkansas for a while to see how I like it and to learn what it’s like to “own” and airplane.   I know a lot of ears just perked up. I’m going to give specs for the plane and our plan below. 

Next week i am I am flying out to Nevada to stay for a few days and train with him. He is obviously licensed and talented enough to do my complex endorsement and will also be able to check me off for the insurance change.  (Insurance went from 800 a year to 2600 lol)  So we will train for the better part of 4 days and then we will cross country the 62C back to Arkansas where I have secured a spot in a hanger for the plane.  I am very excited about the opportunity to train with him and to fly the C. I am equally as nervous to learn the complex but most dauntingly, to learn the Mooney.  I transitioned to a Cherokee from the 172 so that I could get used to the low wing sight picture. However, I know the Mooney will ride much lower and slicker than the Cherokee. i figures it can’t hurt to change to a low wing while I was waiting to get my chance to go to NV. 

 We have discussed me potentially buying the plane from him down the road (many months) if things go well but we will see how I like the plane and will see if he is willing to actually let go of his bird .  Because we don’t know if I will buy the plane yet, the next part is subjective and might not matter. (Details will be below) But the price talk that’s been mentioned by Col. is 35-40ish.  The people that are close to me locally have all said “oh you can’t go wrong with that” or “no way you can lose on that deal, hell the panel and motor is worth that much” but I honestly don’t know. I’ve watched the classified and tried to read as much as possible but I just simply don’t know the market enough to have a valuable opinion.  I know better than to “know” it’s a steal but I’d like to hear your thoughts.  

Additonally, I don’t know of any other “try it before you buy it” kind of deals and I am of course ever grateful of the opportunity he’s giving me to keep her for a while.  I’ll post pictures below and I have done my best to remove the tail number as for his privacy. I’ll let that go if it ever truely is a deal to be had and I am looking to sign papers. We can get into that later.   

 

1963 M20C. 5500 TT  280SMOH of motor. New 3 blade put on with the motor OH.   The last few years have been flown less. Last year was 45, prior was 85, 80, 80, ish on recent hours for the last few years. 

GNS430. Stec 30 w/alt hold. I don’t know all of the other electronics but it is an IFR machine and is not currently 2020 compliant. He says we will add that this fall.  

Tanks sealed in 2014 along with a few other things that I don’t know specifics on. Paint done a few years ago 8/10 and interior is functional but not gorgeous. I haven’t been in it in 6 months so I don’t know what I would rate it but maybe 5/10?  

It lives in Nevada currently (1 year) and is not hangered.  When he lived in other climates for the previous years, it was religiously kept in a hanger.  Apparently the dry weather isn’t as bad as what one would incur in other parts of the country. In fact me getting a hanger was a requirement before he would agree to bring it here for me to play with. The previous owner is the one that did panel updates and he did a few other updates that I do not know the details on.   

 

So, two things— 1. Thoughts on the situation as a whole and on what advice you have for a freshly minted pilot flying a C.  Any pilot tips? I’d love to hear them all.  2. Thoughts on the mentioned price of 35-40?  I know that you’ll need tail number data and pre buy inspections, due diligence but on general whatcha think? 

 

Thank you for taking the time to read this and for any advice that you might be able to pass along to the new guy.

-J

[MIm20c]

He’s a friend of the family who is going out of his way to let you fly his plane. Whatever you pay will be just a drop in the bucket compared to the overall cost of ownership. You’re starting at a young age...in the not to distant future that will be your annual cost of ownership (for any type of plane). Enjoy the ride and thank him every chance you get. 

[gsxrpilot]

• 280 SMOH
• Stec30/altitude
• GNS430
• Regularly flown

That checks all the boxes for me. I'll take it. ;-)

But seriously, I'd take very good care of that airplane and fly it until the Colonel tells you to return it or buy it. If that's one year or ten years... wait until he asks you to buy it. In the mean time try to fly 100 to 150 hours per year and enjoy the heck out of that airplane.

When the time comes to buy, you'll know exactly what it's worth to you. But don't ask, just fly.

[MikeOH]

Dude, this is the BEST frickin'' deal I've ever seen!

Jump all over it.

I'd say good luck, but you've already got that!

[carusoam]

Welcome out in the open Jake!

The most important thing you got was the great guidance...

Two things that are challenges for new VFR pilots are...

• Running out of fuel...
• Flying VFR into IMC...

Working on the IR will keep you from being VFR in IMC...

The next best thing you got... your girl likes aviation already!  

Way to Go, Jake!

Hang around, do some reading, ask a bunch of questions that have been asked many times before...

Mooney questions never get old...

Best regards,

-a-

[jaylw314]

Hi Jake!  Congratulations on a great opportunity!

That was a good idea transitioning to a Cherokee from a 172.  The sight picture is actually not too far off a Mooney, I think both have similar forward visibility over the cowl as well, and low wing aircraft have noticeably more ground effect while landing than the 172.  That being said, the Cherokee floats like a brick compared to Mooney's.

If you've been lurking for a while, you'll know most of us don't see landing Mooney's as very difficult or unique.  You just don't have as much margin for sloppiness with speed control.  I've suggested it before, but practice short-field technique in a trainer until you're blue in the face--if you can hit your approach and landing speeds within 3 knots, there's no reason you can't make the transition to a Mooney with any difficulty.  

[Hank]

Jump on it, Jake! I bought my C with 62 hours. Becoming safe and competent are two different tasks, and are mostly up to you. You'll find lots of great advice here, including some of my own.  

Insurance thenfirst year will be rough, but try hard to flynat least 100 hours, as that will greatly reduce insurance the next year. Mine was a littke higher than yours a decade ago, but my renewal with 100 hours and a MAPA PPP [www.moneypilots.com] behind me fell by half. With Instruments, it fell another 30%.

My recommendation:

1. Let the Colonel train you. Get at least the hours required by insurance co., a little more won't hurt.
2. Attend a MAPA PPP this year, there's often one in Owensboro, KY in the fall, but they move around the country.
3. Try to get at least 100 hours in the first 12 months, to help with insurance renewal.
4. Don't start Instrument training until you know the plane and are comfortable flying it, and landing in all wind conditions. In other words, in your first year, concentrate on learning the plane and becoming one when you're in the left seat.
5. Fly all over with your girl, get her firmly on the airplane side!
6. Have lots of fun!

 

[Yetti]

Lots of people get hung up about the purchase price of an airplane.   Maintenance costs are generally a bigger chunk of change than the purchase price.   It is more of a death by a thousand cuts kind of thing though.   Yes fly it alot.  Pay to keep it maintained.  Learn alot.

[jakearey]

Thanks for the advice and encouragement!  I do have my eyes on the IR soon but I plan to fly for a year to get more comfortable with everything and to be able to enjoy the PPL before I get back to work on the IR.  While the Col. Is here in town I am going to get my PPL instructor up in the air with him so that my primary can continue to train and help with the Mooney. There is also a local mooniac a few rows down on the hangar that has taken me under his wing a little bit, he has a niceeee F exec.  

I don’t know the exact number yet but we do have an arrangement that I will pay an hourly rate for maintenance. Something in the 50-70 per hour range with that number including insurance.  Of course the Cherokees I have access to in the club run 68 dry anyways so I might as well fly a Mooney for the cost, right?  

i hope for some cross country stuff once I get the plane back to Arkansas. Can’t wait to go out to NV and learn. And the journey to get it back here will be a blast.  

 

-J

[bill98]

5 hours ago, jakearey said:

Thanks for the advice and encouragement!  I do have my eyes on the IR soon but I plan to fly for a year to get more comfortable with everything and to be able to enjoy the PPL before I get back to work on the IR.  While the Col. Is here in town I am going to get my PPL instructor up in the air with him so that my primary can continue to train and help with the Mooney. There is also a local mooniac a few rows down on the hangar that has taken me under his wing a little bit, he has a niceeee F exec.  

I don’t know the exact number yet but we do have an arrangement that I will pay an hourly rate for maintenance. Something in the 50-70 per hour range with that number including insurance.  Of course the Cherokees I have access to in the club run 68 dry anyways so I might as well fly a Mooney for the cost, right?  

i hope for some cross country stuff once I get the plane back to Arkansas. Can’t wait to go out to NV and learn. And the journey to get it back here will be a blast.  

 

-J

You should do your instrument right now in that aircraft mahatma will get you comfortable in it. At the same time you can enjoy VFR flights too. Getting your instrument should be priority number one. You notice the weather you just mentioned .... the IFR teaches you good NoGo decision making. 

 

You literally just just found the cheapest route to flight training. Get your commercial while you’re at it too. 

[LANCECASPER]

One other bit of advice . .  even though he is a friend of the family. 

To stay friends, put everything in writing. We all have the tendency to remember what the other person was supposed to do and forget what we were supposed to do.

Written agreements are done in advance, they are bi-lateral (no unfair advantage to one person over the other), in a calm peaceful setting, where cooler heads prevail. Later if things go South, if there's nothing in writing, it's one person's word against another's - preserve the friendship and put things in writing in advance. I would go so far as putting the option to purchase in the initial agreement. You are not obligated to purchase, but as of a certain date you can and here's the amount (future upgrades would affect that price based on what the two of you agree on). If you don't excercise your option by this date then he can sell to whomever he chooses for whatever he chooses.

If it's a partnership until you decide whether to buy or not here's some ideas: 

https://www.aopa.org/go-fly/aircraft-and-ownership/buying-an-aircraft/pilots-guide-to-co-ownership/

https://www.aopa.org/go-fly/aircraft-and-ownership/buying-an-aircraft/pilots-guide-to-co-ownership/agreement-checklist

[1964-M20E]

Sounds like a good deal.  Go through one annual with the plane before you buy it and try if at all possible to do an owner assisted annual you will learn many things about the plane and yourself.  Once you buy it that Apollo thing in there is a paper weight it is LORAN and not used anymore.

Like above set everything down in writing so there are not misunderstandings or since he is a friend at the first sign of trouble in the arrangement kindly fly the plane back to him and thank him for the opportunity to care for his plane and keep a friend.  Other than that thank him very much and fly it well and often.

 

[Air pirate]

Helluva deal!  can't add much to the great advise you received already.  Buy the Col. a good bottle of High West Whiskey. Best of luck to you

[Bryan]

@jakearey Where are you based in Central Arkansas?   I am in Conway.   In Conway, we have two 252's, M20F, and M20C.  Private message me if you'd like.  

[jakearey]

3 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

One other bit of advice . .  even though he is a friend of the family. 

To stay friends, put everything in writing. We all have the tendency to remember what the other person was supposed to do and forget what we were supposed to do.

Written agreements are done in advance, they are bi-lateral (no unfair advatge to one person over the other), in a calm peaceful setting, where cooler heads prevail. Later if things go South, if there's nothing in writing, it's one person's word against another's - preserve the friendship and put things in writing in advance. I would go so far as putting the option to purchase in the initial agreement. You are not obligated to purchase, but as of a certain date you can and here's the amount (future upgrades would affect that price based on what the two of you agree on). If you don't excercise your option by this date then he can sell to whomever he chooses for whatever he chooses.

If it's a partnership until you decide whether to buy or not here's some ideas: 

https://www.aopa.org/go-fly/aircraft-and-ownership/buying-an-aircraft/pilots-guide-to-co-ownership/

https://www.aopa.org/go-fly/aircraft-and-ownership/buying-an-aircraft/pilots-guide-to-co-ownership/agreement-checklist

Very good advice here. I appreciate that. 

[jakearey]

2 minutes ago, Bryan said:

@jakearey Where are you based in Central Arkansas?   I am in Conway.   In Conway, we have two 252's, M20F, and M20C.  Private message me if you'd like.  

I fly out of saline county. I’ve been dying to get into a C for the last few months but didn’t know of any around.  I’m flying out early next week and the weather will be crap all weekend or I’d ask if we could take a hop in the C in Conway.  Maybe I could drive up just to get my eyes on the C? 501-326-2700 - Jake 

[Bryan]

1 minute ago, jakearey said:

I fly out of saline county. I’ve been dying to get into a C for the last few months but didn’t know of any around.  I’m flying out early next week and the weather will be crap all weekend or I’d ask if we could take a hop in the C in Conway.  Maybe I could drive up just to get my eyes on the C? 501-326-2700 - Jake 

I can show you them all.   The C at our local airport is very similar. STEC, 430 WAAS, 300hr engine but doesn't look in as good of condition of the NV bird.

Yes, weather the next 24-48 hours are not going to be good.  Hoping for a break Sunday.  I will PM you my number and if the weather breaks before your trip you are welcome to come up to Conway for a flight.

[Pete M]

Great Deal:) Buy the plane as soon as he'll let you:) assuming a good prebuy and you can afford it. Start your IR as soon as you get back. You'll have plenty of time to fly it vfr if you like. I'd think about changing it to a standard panel.

Edited March 7, 2019 by Pete M

[jakearey]

14 minutes ago, Bryan said:

I can show you them all.   The C at our local airport is very similar. STEC, 430 WAAS, 300hr engine but doesn't look in as good of condition of the NV bird.

Yes, weather the next 24-48 hours are not going to be good.  Hoping for a break Sunday.  I will PM you my number and if the weather breaks before your trip you are welcome to come up to Conway for a flight.

Looking forward to seeing you soon! 

 

9 minutes ago, Pete M said:

Great Deal:) Buy the plane as soon as he'll let you:) assuming a good prebuy and you can afford it. Start your IR as soon as you get back. You'll have plenty of time to fly it vfr if you like. I'd think about changing it to a standard panel.

What do you mean change to a standard panel? The position of the round gauges in a more typical 6 pack stack? 

[TTaylor]

Jake,

Looks like a great opportunity.  As a low time pilot learning to fly the plane should not be too hard.  Take it slow and allow your knowledge and wisdom to grow together.  The Mooney is a traveling machine and you will soon learn that you can cover great distances and weather systems in a few hours. Establish a mindset that you don't have to be someplace and sometimes you will need to pull out the credit card and fly commercial or drive to get someplace or get home.  The mechanics of flying are straightforward, the wisdom and skill to avoid trouble take time.  Enjoy the great gift.

[Bryan]

13 minutes ago, jakearey said:

Looking forward to seeing you soon! 

 

What do you mean change to a standard panel? The position of the round gauges in a more typical 6 pack stack? 

Call me Sunday if the weather looks decent - we will most likely be at the airport.

Standard = a standard layout six-pack arrangement. This C you are looking at has one of the older panel layouts, sometimes referred to as a "shotgun" layout as if the insturments were shot out of a gun to the panel to get them to fit.  What you will learn in IFR is developing a scan between insturments.  A standard 6-pack is easier and more "standard" than this layout.

 

[Hank]

Put in the later C panel, it'll fit more stuff than if you put them in perfectly horizontal rows. This is the factory layout in my 1970 model  with a few extras thrown in (carb temp, vacuum gage, storm scope).

[jakearey]

3 minutes ago, Hank said:

Put in the later C panel, it'll fit more stuff than if you put them in perfectly horizontal rows. This is the factory layout in my 1970 model  with a few extras thrown in (carb temp, vacuum gage, storm scope).

Thanks, Hank. It looks taller to me, is that how they fit more into it? I’d imagine the dimensions are larger? 

[Hank]

I dunno. I'll measure it a few ways for comparison.

[Pete M]

Yep, unfortunately not as easy as it sounds. Frame pieces get in the way of the gyros. A couple of g5's maybe?