M20K stalling tendencies

[M016576]

1 hour ago, aviatoreb said:

Could the difference between what I think my airplane is a mild coordinated stall and others are finding a severe snap roll wig dropping stall not be the difference between coordinate/uncoordinated or  ball centered/not, but instead be the difference between what ai am doing which is pretty much a mild stall then relatively early recovery vs a much deeper stall than some of you are doing?  Maybe it is more standard a snap roll, wing drop situation for our airplanes if we let the stall get pretty deep?  I don't really know from experience.  Who here can speak to this question?

Yes.

 

this is the problem of describing something like “stall characteristics” or “spin recovery” on a forum like this: we have people of all different backgrounds and experience levels using the same words to describe situations in non-controlled environments... that may or may not be the topic of interest.

Yes- one pilots “deep stall” could just be the initial entry for another.  Other variables that we don’t know- outside of just the perceptions of the pilot: instrumented aircraft entry conditions, pressure, altitude, weather, rigging, instrument error tolerance, angle of attack rate of change through the critical AoA, power setting, p-factor.. Cg loading of each aircraft... and of course the intangibles- pilots actual actions as opposed to what they “think” they did.  Trust me on this- what one “thinks” or “remembers” they did in an airplane can be far off from what actually happens (the joys of flying test instrumented aircraft!)

in short- nothing that we have posted yet on this thread is in any way conclusive.

 

that said.... my first J exhibited a 45-50 degree roll off to the right when held in a deep stall.  My current J (missile modification) has a further forward CG... it exhibits this characteristic- but it’s far less severe... it might be that I’m anticipating the rolloff, though now- and applying more rudder when I feel it coming: I haven’t instrumented the mooney- so I cant be sure!

Edited February 15, 2019 by M016576

[N231BN]

Make sure the panel mounts aren't sagging, if you have 1980 shock mounts they will not be in good shape. The ball might be centered but you aren't coordinated.

[carusoam]

Speaking of instrumented planes...

Anyone use CloudAhoy to record flight data during stalls?

That could supply interesting details... altitude lost... initial heading, heading after recovery...  number of turns before recovery???

Things that come to mind...  Specially the memory part... There are lots of details in one maneuver... multiple maneuvers and the memories start to get blended... or mixed... unless you are Richard/skates... where he writes a detailed report on exactly what happened in an entire flight....  

Best regards,

-a-

[PT20J]

Don't make this complicated . If you are going to do a full stall, in any normal category certificated airplane (no Mooneys aren't really different) do it by maintaining level flight, decelerating about one knot per second until you either reach full up elevator or the nose drops - then promptly recover. Most any airplane will drop a wing if you delay recovery (well, except the Cherokees that just oscillate in pitch while descending). Remember that in a stall, your primary roll control is the rudder. If you are aggressive with the rudders you can correct any wing drop before it gets out of hand. If you wait too long you will have to reduce the angle of attack to get the wing flying again to correct the roll.  If you are apprehensive about stalls two common mistakes are to either recover too soon (before it actually stalls fully), or to hold the elevator back fixating on the roll and forgetting the rudder while trying to wrestle it with the ailerons which often just aggravates the rolling tendency. Forty-five or sixty degrees of roll may look scary, but you are not really in a spin (by definition) until after you complete one full turn and the airplane had to be recoverable from one turn for certification. (It has to do much more to be certified for intentional spins).

The way to get comfortable with stalls is practicing with an instructor who is very comfortable with stalls. Best is a DPE 'cause I guarantee you he or she has seen a LOT of odd stall recoveries and is very comfortable with stalls, spins and recoveries in a variety of airplanes.

Skip (CFII, MEI)

[gsxrpilot]

8 hours ago, carusoam said:

Speaking of instrumented planes...

Anyone use CloudAhoy to record flight data during stalls?

Yep.

[mike_elliott]

On 2/14/2019 at 5:54 AM, airbuspilot2436 said:

Yes it's rigged properly and it's centered. 

Have the stall strips been moved from when they were originally installed at the factory (and flight tested to stall straight ahead)? This could cause it

[PT20J]

14 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

23 hours ago, carusoam said:

Speaking of instrumented planes...

Anyone use CloudAhoy to record flight data during stalls?

Yep.

So...... tell us about it.

[Pete M]

Couple quick points. Rigging not withstanding. Center the ball then Hold the nose steady by looking out the window. Keep it steady on a cloud. Or some such...

Faa still requires demonstration of full stall from pp applicants. Slow flight parameters have changed.

My e would drop a wing pretty abruptly. Rigged ailerons for 0 dg. Book calls for 0 to 2dg down if i recall. That solved it. 

Pete,...curently over worked cfi...

[Richie the C]

You full stall advocates are nuts. 

[N201MKTurbo]

Hmmm, I don't know about nuts. I don't go out and do them for fun any more. I did when I was a kid.

I'm not afraid of them. If someone wants me to do one I will. I think any pilot should be able to recover from a full stall.

My CFI buddy is always abusing me when we do BFRs. He usually wants to see things like full stalls from 45 deg turns and such.

[Shadrach]

10 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Hmmm, I don't know about nuts. I don't go out and do them for fun any more. I did when I was a kid.

I'm not afraid of them. If someone wants me to do one I will. I think any pilot should be able to recover from a full stall.

My CFI buddy is always abusing me when we do BFRs. He usually wants to see things like full stalls from 45 deg turns and such.

My last instructor had me do my whole FR save for the first and last 200’ under the hood. I don’t care for stalls under the hood, but I managed just fine. My left wing drops first ever so gently power off. Power on, it drops more aggressively. If you’re lazy on recovery, it will approach 90 degrees of left bank

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, Richie the C said:

You full stall advocates are nuts. 

This thread is beginning to sound like one in a Cirrus forum some years ago. Cirrus still had the bad accident rate and people were comparing it with the great accudent rate of the DA40, speculating it must be something about different stall characteristics. Being new, I innocently said I didn't think that was it. I had done falling leaf stalls in both and didn't see any difference.

Wow! Did I get it for my dangerous attitude in daring to do such a dangerous, non-syllabus-approved maneuver! 

(For those unfamiliar, the falling leaf is a power off stall in which you delay recovery. You continue to hold the stick back, maintaining coordination with rudder. The nose bobs up and down as it stalls, unstalls, stalls...until you decide to recover.)

Edited February 16, 2019 by midlifeflyer

[PT20J]

Isn't the Cirrus stall recovery to pull the chute 

The falling leaf is a great coordination exercise and a lot of fun.

[ArtVandelay]

Hmmm, I don't know about nuts. I don't go out and do them for fun any more. I did when I was a kid.
I'm not afraid of them. If someone wants me to do one I will. I think any pilot should be able to recover from a full stall.
My CFI buddy is always abusing me when we do BFRs. He usually wants to see things like full stalls from 45 deg turns and such.

I hope y’all are doing this at least 6000’ AGL.


Tom