WTB TKS Ovation or Bravo

[MIm20c]

Welcome!

I think your budget and wish list is just fine. Definitely go for the FIKI since you already paying for the maintenance (prob around $5k every 10-15 years). 

The ovation 2 is a great model but has a couple shortcomings. First the propeller (used from 2000-2004 iirc) is a high efficiency two blade that is worthless for getting off the ground.  If it doesn’t have a top prop on it budget the 15k.  Second the engine gauge cluster is not reliable. When it fails the only way to properly repair it is a new panel w/ replacement primary monitor. Since you might as well toss in a new txi at the same time let’s budget 30+k.  Lastly the auto pilot is outstanding but requires extra button pushes during approach and does not play nice with external altitude preselect sources. 

[b2002]

120 pounds sounds like heaven compared to non-TN short body Bonanzas.  The TN fixes the aft cg issues among other things.

I appreciate all the input.

[flight2000]

2 minutes ago, b2002 said:

120 pounds sounds like heaven compared to non-TN short body Bonanzas.  The TN fixes the aft cg issues among other things.

I appreciate all the input.

Baggage compartment limit on "those" is 270 pounds (only the very first straight 35 model is 120 pounds).  Now, CG management is a totally different ballgame....

Mooney's are much easier to throw it in and go fly....

Brian

[b2002]

6 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

Welcome!

I think your budget and wish list is just fine. Definitely go for the FIKI since you already paying for the maintenance (prob around $5k every 10-15 years). 

The ovation 2 is a great model but has a couple shortcomings. First the propeller (used from 2000-2004 iirc) is a high efficiency two blade that is worthless for getting off the ground.  If it doesn’t have a top prop on it budget the 15k.  Second the engine gauge cluster is not reliable. When it fails the only way to properly repair it is a new panel w/ replacement primary monitor. Since you might as well toss in a new txi at the same time let’s budget 30+k.  Lastly the auto pilot is outstanding but requires extra button pushes during approach and does not play nice with external altitude preselect sources. 

Thank you.  Forgive my ignorance but what is a top prop and does it cost cruise speed?

[ArtVandelay]

Just to add an additional point to keep in mind - the baggage door size is the same across all models and the baggage weight limit in the back is 120 pounds across all models.  All that space in the long bodies and it's still 120 pounds...
Brian

Actually, 130...you have 10lbs you can put in the hat rack.


Tom

[flight2000]

1 minute ago, b2002 said:

Thank you.  Forgive my ignorance but what is a top prop and does it cost cruise speed?

Top Prop is a newer design from Hartzell.  Huge improvement for takeoff and climb performance. 

http://hartzellprop.com/products/top-prop/mooney/

Brian

[flight2000]

3 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Actually, 130...you have 10lbs you can put in the hat rack.


Tom

You're right, forgot about that.  So you can throw a couple jackets and a hat or two up there...that's where I usually shoved my cowl plugs and fuselage cover.   

Brian

Edited January 30, 2019 by flight2000

[b2002]

Thanks, sorry I could have found that myself.  They do that with Bonanzas too, but probably not as much perf difference since most start with a 3 blade.  I assume it reduces cruise speed slightly from the 2 blade?

[flight2000]

I put a 2 blade on my M20E and it didn't impact cruise from what I noticed before and after.  I did notice a big improvement in climb performance though. 

I imagine the O's would be about the same. 

Brian

[b2002]

5 minutes ago, flight2000 said:

I put a 2 blade on my M20E and it didn't impact cruise from what I noticed before and after.  I did notice a big improvement in climb performance though. 

I imagine the O's would be about the same. 

Brian

Ok good.  thanks

[MIm20c]

11 minutes ago, b2002 said:

Thanks, sorry I could have found that myself.  They do that with Bonanzas too, but probably not as much perf difference since most start with a 3 blade.  I assume it reduces cruise speed slightly from the 2 blade?

The old 3 blade Ovations 94-99 are probably the slowest in cruise, the thick top prop is in the middle, and the 2000-2004 two blade along with the thin (Acclaim S) props are the fastest. Keep in mind the tks eats into the speed as well. 

[smccray]

47 minutes ago, b2002 said:

120 pounds sounds like heaven compared to non-TN short body Bonanzas.  The TN fixes the aft cg issues among other things.

I appreciate all the input.

FIKI isn't available in a short body Bo.  If you want a FIKI bonanza you're looking at an A36.  There is some discussion on on whether it's legal to stack the Tornado Alley turbo STC on top of a CAV FIKI STC.  That's out of my area of expertise, but finding a FIKI TNA36 is very rare.  With the intercooler on the whirl wind III edition of the TN, I wouldn't want to be in any icing conditions with the intercooler icing up.

[b2002]

2 minutes ago, smccray said:

FIKI isn't available in a short body Bo.  If you want a FIKI bonanza you're looking at an A36.  There is some discussion on on whether it's legal to stack the Tornado Alley turbo STC on top of a CAV FIKI STC.  That's out of my area of expertise, but finding a FIKI TNA36 is very rare.  With the intercooler on the whirl wind III edition of the TN, I wouldn't want to be in any icing conditions with the intercooler icing up.

Yes short body Bo would only be inadvertent protection.  Agree the Mooneys are where it's at for FIKI.

[smccray]

1 hour ago, Marauder said:

Maybe we should have a thread just for shunned members. 

I thought this site was:

As I posted when I bought the A36- I can't afford a 6 seat Tarbes Built Mooney, but I'll always be a Mooniac!!!

 

1 hour ago, KLRDMD said:

If you need a 5th or 6th seat, club seating, the large "barn" doors in the back or the increased useful load that a TN550 A-36 provides over an Ovation or Bravo, the Mooney may not be the better option.

 It depends . . .

I agree- but - if a FIKI piston aircraft is needed, there is no better value plane than a Bravo.  I do know that you can't have tip tanks and FIKI.  As I mentioned above, there is some question about the TN and the FIKI working together.  I tend to believe they aren't, but I don't know.  If the TN system is a limitation on the FIKI STC, and you cant have tip tanks, then you're limited to 3700 gross weight.  Add the CAV system and full TKS you're pretty limited on the useful load.  I think you were on the right track with the PC12!

[DonMuncy]

14 minutes ago, smccray said:

As I posted when I bought the A36- I can't afford a 6 seat Tarbes Built Mooney, but I'll always be a Mooniac!!!

 

OK, we will let you hang around. But only if you promise to be nice  

[alextstone]

2 hours ago, b2002 said:

Well I did say maybe a little more...

I new to Mooneys so open to suggestions.

What would I typically find for 200-220?

Welcome to Mooneyspace!,

Last September, I purchased a FIKI 95 Bravo with lots of avionics upgrades, long range tanks (7 hour endurance!) and almost new paint for a number that is very close to your budget (2400 hr TT, NDH, 1100 HR SMOH). I have invested another 20K since purchase in handling some "deferred maintenance" issues.  I've owned a 93 J Mooney, an '05 Ovation 2 and an '07 Acclaim Type S.   For what it's worth, here's what I have learned:

1)  I do not enjoy turbulence for extended periods of time so a turbo really comes in handy.

2)  I want to safely dispatch in most weather conditions so FIKI is a must (and turbo).

3)  Airplane maintenance is expensive in general and the Bravo has some peculiarities that raise its maintenance costs somewhat higher (25 hr oil changes,  expensive engine and components).  Someone else wisely pointed out that although these airplanes are in the 200K range,  a comparable new aircraft is 750K so you can reasonably expect the maintenance costs to be reflective of an airplane worth 750K.

4)  They all go reasonably fast, some faster, higher and farther than others.  Pick one that fits 85% of your mission profile, is within your purchase AND operating budget.  Fly commercial the other 15% of the time.

Have fun researching and as my wife says,   "Sometimes it comes down to not making the right choice but making your choice right".

 

[Niko182]

1 hour ago, flight2000 said:

Just to add an additional point to keep in mind - the baggage door size is the same across all models and the baggage weight limit in the back is 120 pounds across all models.  All that space in the long bodies and it's still 120 pounds...

Brian

baggage limit if 340 lbs if you're not using the back seats. just fold them down and enjoy the additional space and load.
in most cases, people who want single engine piston FIKI planes to go into O2 levels are not flying with more than 2 people.

[KLRDMD]

48 minutes ago, smccray said:

if a FIKI piston aircraft is needed, there is no better value plane than a Bravo. 

Again, it depends. If you value useful load and/or six seats and pressurization, a Cessna P210 is a tremendous value and they are available FIKI.

I'm not much for absolutes . . . the PC-12 being an exception 

[b2002]

3 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

baggage limit if 340 lbs if you're not using the back seats. just fold them down and enjoy the additional space and load.
in most cases, people who want single engine piston FIKI planes to go into O2 levels are not flying with more than 2 people.

 

12 minutes ago, alextstone said:

Welcome to Mooneyspace!,

Last September, I purchased a FIKI 95 Bravo with lots of avionics upgrades, long range tanks (7 hour endurance!) and almost new paint for a number that is very close to your budget (2400 hr TT, NDH, 1100 HR SMOH). I have invested another 20K since purchase in handling some "deferred maintenance" issues.  I've owned a 93 J Mooney, an '05 Ovation 2 and an '07 Acclaim Type S.   For what it's worth, here's what I have learned:

1)  I do not enjoy turbulence for extended periods of time so a turbo really comes in handy.

2)  I want to safely dispatch in most weather conditions so FIKI is a must (and turbo).

3)  Airplane maintenance is expensive in general and the Bravo has some peculiarities that raise its maintenance costs somewhat higher (25 hr oil changes,  expensive engine and components).  Someone else wisely pointed out that although these airplanes are in the 200K range,  a comparable new aircraft is 750K so you can reasonably expect the maintenance costs to be reflective of an airplane worth 750K.

4)  They all go reasonably fast, some faster, higher and farther than others.  Pick one that fits 85% of your mission profile, is within your purchase AND operating budget.  Fly commercial the other 15% of the time.

Have fun researching and as my wife says,   "Sometimes it comes down to not making the right choice but making your choice right".

 

Thank you, great advice.

I have read that the Bravo OH cost is in the 55-60k range.  Does that seem right?

What other engine maintenance issues/costs are there that stand out?  How much turbo system maintenance is required?

The big bore TCM engines seem to need new cylinders mid-TBO sometimes.  What are the weaknesses of the Lycoming engines in the Bravos?

I may be joining your ranks fairly soon...

[Niko182]

If you want the best all weather single engine piston aircraft at a decent price, no other plane comes close to the bravo. Most lycomings will make it to tbo
without an issue if you treat the engine nicely. continentals seem to like cylinders at about the 1000 hour mark. If memory serves me correctly,
I believe lycomings had issues with the cams (I THINK. This is based off memory and I own an ovation, so I don't deal with the lycoming engines).
Ovation is a great option too. When lance stated before that the ovations lose the climb rate after 10000ft, he was right, but that doesn't still mean they climb
pretty decently. at 10000ft on a hot day climbing to 12500ft, I was getting around 850ft per minute climb when I was running a 244hp engine. The 310HP have an insane amount of power on take off and really climb like hell. lightly loaded, I'll see 1800 to 1900ft per minute on the first 2 to 3 thousand feet, and then 1400 up to around 6 to 8k.

And since other people brought useful load into the topic, an A36 with FIKI, a turbo normalization system, and O2 isn't going to have a great useful load either. It really grinds my gears down that people are surprised some of the mooneys have crappy useful loads, but don't realize that useful load is being replaced with insane amounts of capabilities. An acclaim that has 930lbs with FIKI and O2 can take 2 people with a couple of bags, about 1000 miles, fly throught icing conditions, up to 25 thousand feet, and cruise comfortable at 220 knots and stay completely legal. a bravo will do 85% at half the price.

[b2002]

1 hour ago, Niko182 said:

If you want the best all weather single engine piston aircraft at a decent price, no other plane comes close to the bravo. Most lycomings will make it to tbo
without an issue if you treat the engine nicely. continentals seem to like cylinders at about the 1000 hour mark. If memory serves me correctly,
I believe lycomings had issues with the cams (I THINK. This is based off memory and I own an ovation, so I don't deal with the lycoming engines).
Ovation is a great option too. When lance stated before that the ovations lose the climb rate after 10000ft, he was right, but that doesn't still mean they climb
pretty decently. at 10000ft on a hot day climbing to 12500ft, I was getting around 850ft per minute climb when I was running a 244hp engine. The 310HP have an insane amount of power on take off and really climb like hell. lightly loaded, I'll see 1800 to 1900ft per minute on the first 2 to 3 thousand feet, and then 1400 up to around 6 to 8k.

And since other people brought useful load into the topic, an A36 with FIKI, a turbo normalization system, and O2 isn't going to have a great useful load either. It really grinds my gears down that people are surprised some of the mooneys have crappy useful loads, but don't realize that useful load is being replaced with insane amounts of capabilities. An acclaim that has 930lbs with FIKI and O2 can take 2 people with a couple of bags, about 1000 miles, fly throught icing conditions, up to 25 thousand feet, and cruise comfortable at 220 knots and stay completely legal. a bravo will do 85% at half the price.

Thank you.  I think I'd be happy with either one, and the 310hp sounds fun.

Whatever I end up with, I plan on hangaring at KPTW.

[Danb]

PTW great when the polar vortex is over I’m at KILG within shouting distance is you would like to check out a like new BRAVOGX I’ve had since basically new.  200 knots, 1000+ mile range 1040 useful load what’s not to like, unless your like the growing group busting on Mooneys

[alextstone]

1 hour ago, b2002 said:

 

Thank you, great advice.

I have read that the Bravo OH cost is in the 55-60k range.  Does that seem right?

What other engine maintenance issues/costs are there that stand out?  How much turbo system maintenance is required?

The big bore TCM engines seem to need new cylinders mid-TBO sometimes.  What are the weaknesses of the Lycoming engines in the Bravos?

I may be joining your ranks fairly soon...

I'm new to Bravos, too so take my info with that in mind. 

Around 60K should get you a good overhaul from what I understand.  As was mentioned, the Lycomings have a reputation for more durability than Continentals.  In my case, although I had a pre-purchase and annual inspection before delivery, I discovered a cylinder that was losing compression due to a failing exhaust valve.  That cost about $3.5K parts/labor to overhaul.  Turbos in general seem to be good for about 1000 hours.  My turbo overhaul cost was about 3K plus labor.  The exhaust system also seems to need IRAN / overhaul at about 1000 hours and there are some components that can be expensive, but this is not necessarily a Bravo-specific problem.  There are other AD's and SB's to consider of course.  Others on this forum are more knowledgable so keep asking questions!

 

[b2002]

3 minutes ago, alextstone said:

I'm new to Bravos, too so take my info with that in mind. 

Around 60K should get you a good overhaul from what I understand.  As was mentioned, the Lycomings have a reputation for more durability than Continentals.  In my case, although I had a pre-purchase and annual inspection before delivery, I discovered a cylinder that was losing compression due to a failing exhaust valve.  That cost about $3.5K parts/labor to overhaul.  Turbos in general seem to be good for about 1000 hours.  My turbo overhaul cost was about 3K plus labor.  The exhaust system also seems to need IRAN / overhaul at about 1000 hours and there are some components that can be expensive, but this is not necessarily a Bravo-specific problem.  There are other AD's and SB's to consider of course.  Others on this forum are more knowledgable so keep asking questions!

 

Not a cheap hobby...but my wife is all on board so green lights ahead!

Thanks for the insights, very valuable to me, hope to pay it forward someday.

[flight2000]

One more thing for the kit bag while you're shopping.  Make sure the engine is the -AF1B or "wet head" version.  The early -AF1A model in the M20M TLS had a problem burning up cylinders (along with the Beech Duke and a few other aircraft that used the same engine).  Most have been converted already, but there are a few hold outs floating around out there and it's not a cheap conversion.  That's an added cost if you snag one that hasn't had it done yet.  It's not mandatory, but I wouldn't want one that hadn't been done.

Brian