O2 altitudes with little kids

[Shadrach]

Those of you shuttling your families around, how do you handle O2 altitudes with little ones?  Mine are 1.5 and 3 years old.  We don't have supplemental O2 in our F but I am considering buying portable system.  I don't think either of them would leave in the cannulas (3 year old maybe) long term. We like to fly 11-12,500 when the winds are favorable.  Would like the option of climbing into the mid teens.  The idea of my kids sleeping is certainly appealing on one level but the appeal fades when I consider that it would be from oxygen deprivation.  Perhaps we just need to wait until they're both over 5 years of age?  They often sleep above 10K as it is. Any thoughts on the wisdom of exposing them to legal, non O2 DA's that cause drowsiness?

[Danb]

Ross just fly 8000 and below, shouldn't have any issues there

[Moh]

This is one of the very important and under covered issues with FAA regulations. The Oxygen requirement rules from the FAA only applies to (1) HEALTHY (2) ADULTS.

When going up, you are not sure what is the proper altitude that your kids lungs surface area is going to compensate for lake of oxygen. Adding the fact that they are sleeping and their respiratory center already inhibited and under control of autonomous nervous system only.

If those were my kids or grandchildren I would (1) carry oxygen, (2) monitor oxygen saturation using reliable finger oximeter every 10-15 minutes, and (3) apply oxygen mask if O2 saturation dropped below 93% (very conservative). You don’t want to expose those young developing brains to hypoxia.

Another aspect missed in the FAA regulations is the rules applies to adults with lung diseases as COPD, pneumonia or even pleural effusion. I would follow the same rules above.

Please note that those are my rules that I feel comfortable applying them.


Thank you
Mohamed

[Shadrach]

52 minutes ago, Danb said:

Ross just fly 8000 and below, shouldn't have any issues there

That's been the case for the trips we've taken with them. They sleep there as well.

Edited January 8, 2019 by Shadrach

[GDGR]

Would a mask, rather than a canula be an option? Seriously only asking. I have a new to me F, and would like to jump "over" the rockies at some point, thus would need oxygen. I have a 7 year old, and a 47 year old wife who hates flying. 

[Shadrach]

19 minutes ago, Moh said:

This is one of the very important and under covered issues with FAA regulations. The Oxygen requirement rules from the FAA only applies to (1) HEALTHY (2) ADULTS.

When going up, you are not sure what is the proper altitude that your kids lungs surface area is going to compensate for lake of oxygen. Adding the fact that they are sleeping and their respiratory center already inhibited and under control of autonomous nervous system only.

If those were my kids or grandchildren I would (1) carry oxygen, (2) monitor oxygen saturation using reliable finger oximeter every 10-15 minutes, and (3) apply oxygen mask if O2 saturation dropped below 93% (very conservative). You don’t want to expose those young developing brains to hypoxia.

Another aspect missed in the FAA regulations is the rules applies to adults with lung diseases as COPD, pneumonia or even pleural effusion. I would follow the same rules above.

Please note that those are my rules that I feel comfortable applying them.


Thank you
Mohamed

Moh,

Thank you for the very thoughtful response! I sense that you may be a medical professional.  I would never fly 02 levels without regularly checking blood sats, but it never occurred to me to check the kids at lower altitudes.

[bradp]

You’ll never get a toddler to wear a cannula or mask.  About 75% of the kids I see in the hospital need at least some sort of device on their face and 100% of the time it’s a thrash.  When it’s not you worry ;-).  

My 5 year old did 11500 with me just fine back from OshKosh. 

Their brains are no less resilient than yours or more susceptible to hypoxia at altitude without supplemental oxygen. Pulse oximety works well on kids too.  Target >90%  

Healthy infants could care less until about 6 months - they have fetal hemoglobin that holds onto oxygen better at a given partial pressure.  They’d probably physiologically do fine up higher than a toddler but I wouldn’t do above 10500 and even then I’d check SpO2  

Don’t  forget about the ears - they don’t have an ability to clear them and pressure equalize. 

I’d recommended  9500/10500 as a max altitude, contingent upon no colds/ ear infections, otherwise healthy kids with no chronic lung (ie preemie), or heart problems. 

[Shadrach]

4 minutes ago, GLJA said:

Would a mask, rather than a canula be an option? Seriously only asking. I have a new to me F, and would like to jump "over" the rockies at some point, thus would need oxygen. I have a 7 year old, and a 47 year old wife who hates flying. 

Either is an option for the folks you've described.  

[Shadrach]

8 minutes ago, bradp said:

You’ll never get a toddler to wear a cannula or mask.  About 75% of the kids I see in the hospital need at least some sort of device on their face and 100% of the time it’s a thrash.  When it’s not you worry ;-).  

My 5 year old did 11500 with me just fine back from OshKosh. 

Their brains are no less resilient than yours or more susceptible to hypoxia at altitude without supplemental oxygen. Pulse oximety works well on kids too.  Target >90%  

Healthy infants could care less until about 6 months - they have fetal hemoglobin that holds onto oxygen better at a given partial pressure.  They’d probably physiologically do fine up higher than a toddler but I wouldn’t do above 10500 and even then I’d check SpO2  

Don’t  forget about the ears - they don’t have an ability to clear them and pressure equalize. 

I’d recommended  9500/10500 as a max altitude, contingent upon no colds/ ear infections, otherwise healthy kids with no chronic lung (ie preemie), or heart problems. 

Thanks Brad! Great info!!!

[smccray]

This post stuck with me a couple years ago:

https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1081720#p1081720

 

Written in response to a similar question on Beechtalk about flying a 4 year old at 14-15k feet for 30 min. to an hour.

You won't damage her permanently. Would you worry about driving up to Pike's Peak with her? She might get a little goofy, might have a headache, but not gonna hurt her. And note that FAR's require pax be PROVIDED oxygen not that they use it. Regards, [removed] Board Certified Pediatric Anesthesiologist

[Jerry 5TJ]

One reason my aviation partner and I bought a PA46 is his young kids won’t wear masks or cannula. The PA46 will maintain a 5,000’ cabin at ~ 20,000’.   The cabin climb/descent rate can be set lower than the plane’s true rate to aid in ear and sinus equalization.  

I know, this is a Mooney forum,  but a number of us have moved to PA46 from our Mooneys & pressurization is one of the reasons.   

[skydvrboy]

Only a single data point, but possibly worth mentioning.  My son and I climbed one of Colorado's 14k ft. peaks the summer after he finished kindergarten.  We acclimated a few days at 6-8k and spent the night before at 10k.  Upon reaching the summit, he couldn't remember his age, his birthday, or how to spell his name.  I realized it was time to quickly get down the mountain.  He's a teenager now and I swear the brain damage from that trip is starting to show! 

[Marauder]

One reason my aviation partner and I bought a PA46 is his young kids won’t wear masks or cannula. The PA46 will maintain a 5,000’ cabin at ~ 20,000’.   The cabin climb/descent rate can be set lower than the plane’s true rate to aid in ear and sinus equalization.  
I know, this is a Mooney forum,  but a number of us have moved to PA46 from our Mooneys & pressurization is one of the reasons.   

I keep meaning to send you your official shunning notification! Considered yourself shunned you oil sniffer!

BTW - we are due for a fly in. I’ll drop something on the Yahoo site so we can practice our shunning when you show up.




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[Marauder]

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[M016576]

Love that turboprop sound- takes me back to my T-34C day’s....

[Bolter]

On 1/8/2019 at 7:57 AM, Shadrach said:

Those of you shuttling your families around, how do you handle O2 altitudes with little ones?  Mine are 1.5 and 3 years old.  We don't have supplemental O2 in our F but I am considering buying portable system.  I don't think either of them would leave in the cannulas (3 year old maybe) long term. We like to fly 11-12,500 when the winds are favorable.  Would like the option of climbing into the mid teens.  The idea of my kids sleeping is certainly appealing on one level but the appeal fades when I consider that it would be from oxygen deprivation.  Perhaps we just need to wait until they're both over 5 years of age?  They often sleep above 10K as it is. Any thoughts on the wisdom of exposing them to legal, non O2 DA's that cause drowsiness?

 

On 1/8/2019 at 8:08 AM, Danb said:

Ross just fly 8000 and below, shouldn't have any issues there

Adding to @Danb comment, typical airliners are at 8k foot pressure inside, and small children fly 11-12 hour intercontinental flights (usually in the seat right behind me) without ill effects or concerns of ill effects.  

[Marauder]

I’m not sure what all this talk about O2 and kids is. My son has turned out fine even though he flew for years with me and without supplemental oxygen.




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[jaylw314]

19 minutes ago, Dan at FUL said:

 

Adding to @Danb comment, typical airliners are at 8k foot pressure inside, and small children fly 11-12 hour intercontinental flights (usually in the seat right behind me) without ill effects or concerns of ill effects.  

Sure doesn't stop them from screaming and kicking the seat in front of them