Cessna 335 twin crashed on take off at KFXE today.

[Piloto]

The Federal Aviation Administration said the plane was a Cessna 335, which had just taken off from Fort Lauderdale Executive Airport. The plane was en route to Hilliard, a town in north Florida, the FAA said. 

https://www.local10.com/news/local/fort-lauderdale/small-plane-crashes-into-warehouse-sparking-fire-in-fort-lauderdale

Like other twins on takeoff there is no assurance of overcoming an engine failure on takeoff. Unlike singles the chances of an engine failure on a twin are twice that of single. Not to mention near Vmc on takeoff/climb can impair controllability after engine failure.

The C335 is very popular at KFXE for cargo and passengers to the Bahamas.

José

 

Edited December 2, 2018 by Piloto

[gsengle]

Respectfully, nonsense. With proper training, a twin of this class is very controllable during an engine failure. The odds of total engine failure are vanishingly small. We don’t hear about all the twin engine failures or precautionary shut downs because they are usually non events.

 

The Cessna twin I usually fly, Mooney owner here, has a stall speed higher than VMC. Love the Mooney, would love to have a twin for the load and safety. The twin issues are mostly training issues imho.

 

 

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[Piloto]

A C130 four engine an a crew of four had the same outcome on takeoff.

José 

https://media.defense.gov/2018/Nov/09/2002061699/-1/-1/0/180502-AMC-MUÑIZ AIR NATIONAL GUARD BASE, PUERTO RICO-WC-C130H-AIB-NARRATIVE REPORT.PDF

 

[gsengle]

A C130 four engine an a crew of four had the same outcome on takeoff.
José 
https://media.defense.gov/2018/Nov/09/2002061699/-1/-1/0/180502-AMC-MUÑIZ AIR NATIONAL GUARD BASE, PUERTO RICO-WC-C130H-AIB-NARRATIVE REPORT.PDF
 

Anecdotal evidence is a logical fallacy. I’ll refrain from posting all the light singles that went down this last month....


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[Guest]

Interesting that the news says a smell of Jet fuel, a Cessna 335 is powered by TSIO520EB engines.

Clarence

[gsengle]

Interesting that the news says a smell of Jet fuel, a Cessna 335 is powered by TSIO520EB engines.
Clarence

Yeah that would take down all your engines, single or multi...


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[MB65E]

It’s becoming more common. I know several owners that have had jet fuel in their aircraft. 

Also almost lost a DA900 in FL this summer. It had diesel exhaust fluid in the fuel. They lost 2 engines...

-Matt

[Andy95W]

5 hours ago, gsengle said:

 

Yeah that would take down all your engines, single or multi...


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Don’t tell Josè that. His Mooney is safer than a C-130. 

[Piloto]

6 hours ago, gsengle said:

 

Anecdotal evidence is a logical fallacy. I’ll refrain from posting all the light singles that went down this last month....


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Here are some historical facts:

Before Lindberg flight cross the Atlantic on a single two twin engine planes were lost during the attempt.

Amelia Earhart  was the first solo woman to cross the Atlantic on her single engine Lockheed Vega but disappeared  in her twin engine Electra when attempting to land on  Howland island.  

77 B737 crashes list http://www.airsafe.com/events/models/b737.htm

A320 ditch in the Hudson river after takeoff https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Airways_Flight_1549

New  FAA approved bird avoidance device https://www.amazon.com/Gardeneer-Dalen-RHO4-Scarecrow-Rotating/dp/B0000AX52C/ref=pd_lpo_vtph_86_bs_t_1?­_­e­n­c­o­d­i­n­g­=­U­T­F­8­&­a­m­p­&­p­s­c­=­1­&­a­m­p­&­r­e­f­R­I­D­=­N­4­H­A­E­W8GSSH00GXPJQXS  

It installs on top of the nose like a hood ornament.

José

 

Edited December 2, 2018 by Piloto

[aviatoreb]

2 minutes ago, Piloto said:

Here are some historical facts:

Before Lindberg flight cross the Atlantic on a single two twin engine planes were lost during the attempt.

Amelia Earhart  was the first solo woman to cross the Atlantic on her single engine Lockheed Vega but disappeared  in her twin engine Electra when attempting to land on  Howland island.  

77 B737 crashes list http://www.airsafe.com/events/models/b737.htm

José

 

That proves it.  Nothing has changed since 1927 and you are right.  I will never fly in a twin engine airplane again!

[Guest]

I would venture a guess that almost ALL airplane crashes, gear up landing etc had a pilot onboard the plane at the time of the accident.  This proves to me that pilots are the cause of all accidents.  

Clarence

[aviatoreb]

26 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

I would venture a guess that almost ALL airplane crashes, gear up landing etc had a pilot onboard the plane at the time of the accident.  This proves to me that pilots are the cause of all accidents.  

Clarence

And since your statement was true in 1927 that there were pilots on board, the cause of this problem started in 1927.  Therefore something must have changed in the pilot population in 1927 to have caused them to become problems.

[kpaul]

26 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

I would venture a guess that almost ALL airplane crashes, gear up landing etc had a pilot onboard the plane at the time of the accident.  This proves to me that pilots are the cause of all accidents.  

Clarence

Doc,

close... but what about paper airplanes, remote control airplanes, and even autonomous aircraft?  It can't be only because of pilots...lets blame the lack of a pilot relief tube  

 

[Andy95W]

Unlike most threads, this one didn’t turn out stupid. It started that way. 

[gsengle]

Here are some historical facts:
Before Lindberg flight cross the Atlantic on a single two twin engine planes were lost during the attempt.
Amelia Earhart  was the first solo woman to cross the Atlantic on her single engine Lockheed Vega but disappeared  in her twin engine Electra when attempting to land on  Howland island.  
77 B737 crashes list http://www.airsafe.com/events/models/b737.htm
A320 ditch in the Hudson river after takeoff https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Airways_Flight_1549
New  FAA approved bird avoidance device https://www.amazon.com/Gardeneer-Dalen-RHO4-Scarecrow-Rotating/dp/B0000AX52C/ref=pd_lpo_vtph_86_bs_t_1?­_­e­n­c­o­d­i­n­g­=­U­T­F­8­&­a­m­p­&­p­s­c­=­1­&­a­m­p­&­r­e­f­R­I­D­=­N­4­H­A­E­W8GSSH00GXPJQXS  
It installs on top of the nose like a hood ornament.
José
 

That proves for an endurance test where you’re willing to risk your life, that a single is more efficient...


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[kpaul]

2 hours ago, Piloto said:

Here are some historical facts:

Before Lindberg flight cross the Atlantic on a single two twin engine planes were lost during the attempt.

Amelia Earhart  was the first solo woman to cross the Atlantic on her single engine Lockheed Vega but disappeared  in her twin engine Electra when attempting to land on  Howland island.  

77 B737 crashes list http://www.airsafe.com/events/models/b737.htm

A320 ditch in the Hudson river after takeoff https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Airways_Flight_1549

New  FAA approved bird avoidance device https://www.amazon.com/Gardeneer-Dalen-RHO4-Scarecrow-Rotating/dp/B0000AX52C/ref=pd_lpo_vtph_86_bs_t_1?­_­e­n­c­o­d­i­n­g­=­U­T­F­8­&­a­m­p­&­p­s­c­=­1­&­a­m­p­&­r­e­f­R­I­D­=­N­4­H­A­E­W8GSSH00GXPJQXS  

It installs on top of the nose like a hood ornament.

José

 

Are you saying that the A320 that crashed into the Hudson would have not crashed if it were a single engine?  

And did you even read any of the information about the 737 crashes you posted?  How many of them were caused because the aircraft had two engines instead of one?  

[Guest]

2 hours ago, kpaul said:

Doc,

close... but what about paper airplanes, remote control airplanes, and even autonomous aircraft?  It can't be only because of pilots...lets blame the lack of a pilot relief tube  

 

I stand corrected.  Let me add that in your examples there still was a pilot involved in the flight, and many of these flights also end in disaster.

Clarence

[Piloto]

6 hours ago, kpaul said:

Are you saying that the A320 that crashed into the Hudson would have not crashed if it were a single engine?  

And did you even read any of the information about the 737 crashes you posted?  How many of them were caused because the aircraft had two engines instead of one?  

Piston single engines do not ingest birds like twin turbo fan jet engines.

José

Edited December 3, 2018 by Piloto

[thinwing]

9 hours ago, Piloto said:

Here are some historical facts:

Before Lindberg flight cross the Atlantic on a single two twin engine planes were lost during the attempt.

Amelia Earhart  was the first solo woman to cross the Atlantic on her single engine Lockheed Vega but disappeared  in her twin engine Electra when attempting to land on  Howland island.  

77 B737 crashes list http://www.airsafe.com/events/models/b737.htm

A320 ditch in the Hudson river after takeoff https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Airways_Flight_1549

New  FAA approved bird avoidance device https://www.amazon.com/Gardeneer-Dalen-RHO4-Scarecrow-Rotating/dp/B0000AX52C/ref=pd_lpo_vtph_86_bs_t_1?­_­e­n­c­o­d­i­n­g­=­U­T­F­8­&­a­m­p­&­p­s­c­=­1­&­a­m­p­&­r­e­f­R­I­D­=­N­4­H­A­E­W8GSSH00GXPJQXS  

It installs on top of the nose like a hood ornament.

José

 

And not one of them had an installed pilot relief tube...hence they crashed because their bladders were full

[TonyK]

14 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Therefore something must have changed in the pilot population in 1927 to have caused them to become problems.

As my grandfather was fond of saying.  He started flying when the airplanes were made of wood and the men of steel. Not the other way around.

[jetdriven]

 The decline in the number of pirates has led to an increase in global temperatures. Here’s the proof. 

 

I guess nobody ever explain to Jose that a turbofan engine will run 25,000 or more hours between overhauls and the accident on the Hudson was the first time in hundreds of millions of commercial flying hours that both jet engines failed and shut down at the same time due to mechanical failure. 

Edited December 3, 2018 by jetdriven

[aviatoreb]

18 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

 The decline in the number of pirates has led to an increase in global temperatures. Here’s the proof. 

 

I love this graph.  I will find a way to work it in to some one of my classes at some point.  Thanks for doing my job for me!  Its a keeper.  

Edited December 3, 2018 by aviatoreb

[Piloto]

The longest TBO for jet engines I heard was 6,000 hrs at the United MRO in SFO. Jet engines not only ingest birds but debris on the runway (pot holes rocks, bolts, plane parts, hail stones) also. This causes fan blade damage that it is expensive and cumbersome to repair. Runway debris ingestion is most common in underdeveloped countries. Most common on low wing mounted engines. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_between_overhauls

José

[Bravoman]

1 hour ago, aviatoreb said:

I love this graph.  I will find a way to work it in to some one of my classes at some point.  Thanks for doing my job for me!  Its a keeper.  

Not a comment on the subject matter of this thread but the above graph gave me a chuckle because it drives home the point of how the news media today immediately jumps to the conclusion as to the cause of something based on nothing more than anecdotal conjecture and the masses accept it as fact.

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, Bravoman said:

Not a comment on the subject matter of this thread but the above graph gave me a chuckle because it drives home the point of how the news media today immediately jumps to the conclusion as to the cause of something based on nothing more than anecdotal conjecture and the masses accept it as fact.

I disagree strongly.  This graph is not an example of anecdotal argument.  It may be many things but it is not an anecdote.  An anecdote suggests a single (or few) examples from which one draws grand (unfounded) generalizing conclusions.  That kind of mistake is indeed rife in the press but it is also common all around us.  Example: one twin jet engine airplane had a catastrophic loss of power due to birds and landed in the hudson and therefore all twins are unsafe.  However that shown about pirates and global temps is a graph that clearly has a lot of data behind it, so it is not an anecdote.  Instead it is an example of another classic mistake that correlation and causation are not synonymous. 

 

Edited December 3, 2018 by aviatoreb