GFC500 Update

[toto]

32 minutes ago, bradp said:

I’ll even say that the envelope protection aspect offsets the silly GPS required for localizer tracking pock mark as I receive yet another GPS interference testing notam this afternoon...

I was pretty frustrated with the GPS limitation for ground-based navigation sources, but it's worth noting that the GFC500 does revert to pitch mode (if you're tracking an ILS) or heading mode (if you're on something without vertical guidance).  So you get a big scary indication in the G5 that you've lost GPS, and the AP remains engaged in pitch mode.

(I have a plane that just came out of the shop getting 2xG5+GFC500 installed - I've done a grand total of one flight with the new setup, but the performance of the GFC500 is impressive.  I'm still trying to figure out a way to simulate GPS failure without having to physically disconnect something.)

[aviatoreb]

1 minute ago, toto said:

I was pretty frustrated with the GPS limitation for ground-based navigation sources, but it's worth noting that the GFC500 does revert to pitch mode (if you're tracking an ILS) or heading mode (if you're on something without vertical guidance).  So you get a big scary indication in the G5 that you've lost GPS, and the AP remains engaged in pitch mode.

(I have a plane that just came out of the shop getting 2xG5+GFC500 installed - I've done a grand total of one flight with the new setup, but the performance of the GFC500 is impressive.  I'm still trying to figure out a way to simulate GPS failure without having to physically disconnect something.)

That is a good point.  That should be a software option for training purposes.

[toto]

3 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

That is a good point.  That should be a software option for training purposes.

Yeah, they don't have a G5 simulator like they have for the navigators.  I'd be happy with an offline app that could be used just to become familiar with the indications (an app that includes a "kill GPS" button).

[ArtVandelay]

I was pretty frustrated with the GPS limitation for ground-based navigation sources, but it's worth noting that the GFC500 does revert to pitch mode (if you're tracking an ILS) or heading mode (if you're on something without vertical guidance).  So you get a big scary indication in the G5 that you've lost GPS, and the AP remains engaged in pitch mode.

(I have a plane that just came out of the shop getting 2xG5+GFC500 installed - I've done a grand total of one flight with the new setup, but the performance of the GFC500 is impressive.  I'm still trying to figure out a way to simulate GPS failure without having to physically disconnect something.)

You can’t pull circuit breaker for the GPS?

Edit: G5s I guess have internal GPS?

 

 

Tom

[Niko182]

Another question to ask is when was the last time Bendix King actually did something. I wouldn't ever buy something BK now. they've been saying they're coming out with the KL300 for the last 4 years. Garmin and Aspen both have come out with better and cheaper alternatives in a shorter time span. I can get a dual G5 setup or an E5 that replaces both the AI and HSI for cheaper than the BK AI unit alone with the autopilot adapter. I've seen so many people annoyed with garmin, that they don't play well with others, but at least they're pushing whats available to GA. yeah, their top of the line stuff is expensive, but quality comes at a price. Dynon has been available to 172's for over half a year and it doesn't seem like many owners are biting. Why would mooney owners bite if cessna owners won't. Mooney owners are known as the cheap ones. The GFC500 seems like an awesome autopilot and I can completely see why people would take out a KFC and replace it with a GFC500. The way I see it, it'll probably be cheaper in the long run.

[toto]

29 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

You can’t pull circuit breaker for the GPS?

Edit: G5s I guess have internal GPS?

 

 

Tom

Well, it's driven by a 430, but that radio is also the source for the LOC/GS/VOR. So if I pull the power from the 430, I'd lose the GPS but also the stuff I'm expecting to track. 

 

[m20kmooney]

13 hours ago, bradp said:

I’ll even say that the envelope protection aspect offsets the silly GPS required for localizer tracking pock mark as I receive yet another GPS interference testing notam this afternoon...

Pressing AP, FD, ALT on the KFC150 will roll wings level. That's a form of envelope protection. So what else does the GFC500 do to warrant all this expense? 

[bradp]

It is smart in that it will nudge your controls if you try to pull a Jerry W. 

[khedrei]

42 minutes ago, m20kmooney said:

Pressing AP, FD, ALT on the KFC150 will roll wings level. That's a form of envelope protection. So what else does the GFC500 do to warrant all this expense? 

I'm not quite sure what "expense" you are referring to. The system is 7k with 2 servos. Yes, you have to buy at least one G5, two if you want a more capable system. How much was a comparible KFC150 back in the day adjusted for inflation?

Edited February 20, 2019 by khedrei

[aviatoreb]

2 hours ago, m20kmooney said:

Pressing AP, FD, ALT on the KFC150 will roll wings level. That's a form of envelope protection. So what else does the GFC500 do to warrant all this expense? 

That is not ESP.  GFC500 ESP will nudge you back toward the controlled flight envelope whether you are flying with the AP engaged, or just noodling around hand flying.  It is always watching over you.  It is a significant safety enhancement.  If it were to even one time save you and prevent you from being dead, then on that one occasion it has justified the extra expense.  Yes other times perhaps it is a frivolous expense.

[aviatoreb]

2 hours ago, khedrei said:

I'm not quite sure what "expense" you are referring to. The system is 7k with 2 servos. Yes, you have to buy at least one G5, two if you want a more capable system. How much was a comparible KFC150 back in the day adjusted for inflation?

I have researched the price - installed - for complete GFC500, incl dual G5, incl 2 servos plus a pitch servo so it is competitive in performance with my KFC200, installed, including removing the current AP and that will cost greater than 20k, possibly closer to 25k - it is a very labor intensive thing installing and removing an complete AP.  I think it is roughly 12 or 13k total in hardware from Garmin btw.

[MIm20c]

2 hours ago, khedrei said:

I'm not quite sure what "expense" you are referring to. The system is 7k with 2 servos. Yes, you have to buy at least one G5, two if you want a more capable system. How much was a comparible KFC150 back in the day adjusted for inflation?

Going by the most recent prices (inflated to purposely discontinue) to buy a new 256, 55 hsi, and a 225 AP system will probably cost 60-80k in parts alone.  Makes the 13k in parts for the Garmin system look cheap. 

[aviatoreb]

29 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

Going by the most recent prices (inflated to purposely discontinue) to buy a new 256, 55 hsi, and a 225 AP system will probably cost 60-80k in parts alone.  Makes the 13k in parts for the Garmin system look cheap. 

Yeah - that is just stupid.  

But no one is buying a new King autopilot.  We are just considering if it is cost effective to keep that we already own and is installed, running in good order, by considering the cost of overhauls at secondary shops many of which are not only much much cheaper than the king factory but of significantly higher quality.

[Steve W]

1 hour ago, MIm20c said:

Going by the most recent prices (inflated to purposely discontinue) to buy a new 256, 55 hsi, and a 225 AP system will probably cost 60-80k in parts alone.  Makes the 13k in parts for the Garmin system look cheap. 

STEC's new 3100 looks to be listing for about $20k for parts. But you don't get any displays with that so if you want something other than what you have that would be extra.

[m20kmooney]

4 hours ago, khedrei said:

I'm not quite sure what "expense" you are referring to. The system is 7k with 2 servos. Yes, you have to buy at least one G5, two if you want a more capable system. How much was a comparible KFC150 back in the day adjusted for inflation?

I assume there are installation costs. Unless you're going to put it in the baggage compartment!

Edited February 20, 2019 by m20kmooney

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, m20kmooney said:

I assume there are installation costs. Unless you're going to put it in the baggage compartment!

The closest estimate I can find on the internet for the system installed costs comes from this website.  As I read it, they are suggesting 19k installed for the complete GFC500 system, incl 2 G5, trim, etc, for a Bonanza, if I am reading this correctly.  I would expect an M20 to be in roughly the same ballpark cost.

https://avionics-laf.com/products/garmin-gfc500-autopilot-9-995-00-installed

[khedrei]

It seems to me like people are trying to compare apples to oranges.  Yes, you need 2 G5's to run this autopilot so it's only fair to include them.  But your old BK autopilot needed an AI to run it correct?  That is a legitimate question, I don't know how the old stuff worked.  I assume you also needed a nice King mechanical HSI as well to be able to track an ILS, or at the very least an indicator with a GS.  What's a good mechanical HSI worth, $10k??  So yes, you are replacing those old vacuum instruments with new electric ones that will last much longer, but to have your old autopilot working, you also NEEDED some form of those instruments so it would be unfair to include the G5's in today's pricing of the Garmin but leave out those things when comparing to your legacy autopilot.  If a person today already has 2 G5's then this autopilot is worth $7k plus an extra trim servo if that's what you want to compare to a KFC200.  Just make sure your BK system has one if you are going to compare it to the GFC500's price with a 3rd servo.

So tell me, what was the cost, 30 years ago of a BK autopilot, a decent vacuum AI and a mechanical HSI worth?  Even if it was $25k installed in 1990 (which it was probably more), that $25K in 1990 dollars is now $40k+ adjusted for inflation.  Forget the above post of the jacked up costs due to low availability, just take into account what $25k back then is worth today by the shear value of a dollar.

For sure you need to price in labour.  $8-10k in labour for a full install I would think.  Extra for Yaw servo.

So yes, material cost is 13k for a 3 axis system including 2 G5's.  I don't quite see how that is a lot of money...  maybe I am missing something.

Again, I go back to my previous post a few pages back and say, if this is not an upgrade from your current system, don't buy it!  You will save $25k.  Personally I'm drooling over it and can't wait to ditch my old single axis Centry that hardly works.  I couldn't sign up fast enough.  Garmin is probably sick of the emails I keep sending them asking for updates.

[Steve W]

32 minutes ago, khedrei said:

 I assume you also needed a nice King mechanical HSI as well to be able to track an ILS, or at the very least an indicator with a GS. 

Interestingly, no. You wouldn't even need a CDI with a GS, the GS data comes directly from the GS receiver to the autopilot, the HSI or CDI only displays the same data. Admittedly, trying to fly a glideslope with the autopilot without a display would be a bit of a challenge. Same with course deviation but in that case without a CDI and OBS you couldn't actually set the course, which means you could fly LOC but not VORs. (Source: KFC 150 installation manual)

This is also why it was so 'easy' for the Garmin G5 to replace the HSI, the only output sourced from the HSI to the Autopilot is the heading bug. The course deviation and glideslope goes straight from the nav radio to the existing autopilot as the normal analog signals and the G5 gets the digital versions.

 

 

 

Edited February 20, 2019 by Steve W

[m20kmooney]

33 minutes ago, khedrei said:

It seems to me like people are trying to compare apples to oranges.  Yes, you need 2 G5's to run this autopilot so it's only fair to include them.  But your old BK autopilot needed an AI to run it correct?  That is a legitimate question, I don't know how the old stuff worked.  I assume you also needed a nice King mechanical HSI as well to be able to track an ILS, or at the very least an indicator with a GS.  What's a good mechanical HSI worth, $10k??  So yes, you are replacing those old vacuum instruments with new electric ones that will last much longer, but to have your old autopilot working, you also NEEDED some form of those instruments so it would be unfair to include the G5's in today's pricing of the Garmin but leave out those things when comparing to your legacy autopilot.  If a person today already has 2 G5's then this autopilot is worth $7k plus an extra trim servo if that's what you want to compare to a KFC200.  Just make sure your BK system has one if you are going to compare it to the GFC500's price with a 3rd servo.

So tell me, what was the cost, 30 years ago of a BK autopilot, a decent vacuum AI and a mechanical HSI worth?  Even if it was $25k installed in 1990 (which it was probably more), that $25K in 1990 dollars is now $40k+ adjusted for inflation.  Forget the above post of the jacked up costs due to low availability, just take into account what $25k back then is worth today by the shear value of a dollar.

For sure you need to price in labour.  $8-10k in labour for a full install I would think.  Extra for Yaw servo.

So yes, material cost is 13k for a 3 axis system including 2 G5's.  I don't quite see how that is a lot of money...  maybe I am missing something.

Again, I go back to my previous post a few pages back and say, if this is not an upgrade from your current system, don't buy it!  You will save $25k.  Personally I'm drooling over it and can't wait to ditch my old single axis Centry that hardly works.  I couldn't sign up fast enough.  Garmin is probably sick of the emails I keep sending them asking for updates.

For you upgrading your Century it may make sense. But for me it doesn’t. I will never remove my solid working KFC150 and pay 25k! That’s crazy nuts! No gain, huge loss!

[MIm20c]

2 hours ago, m20kmooney said:

For you upgrading your Century it may make sense. But for me it doesn’t. I will never remove my solid working KFC150 and pay 25k! That’s crazy nuts! No gain, huge loss!

My guess is you’ll have a hefty repair bill on the 150 before the g3x gets certified...which means you have many years to go. 

[LANCECASPER]

44 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

My guess is you’ll have a hefty repair bill on the 150 before the g3x gets certified...which means you have many years to go. 

The "G3X" will never get certified since the "X" is for Experimental. They may certify a touch screen PFD and MFD . . . oh hold on, they did, they call it a TXI .. . lol

[aviatoreb]

2 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

The "G3X" will never get certified since the "X" is for Experimental. They may certify a touch screen PFD and MFD . . . oh hold on, they did, they call it a TXI .. . lol

So does that mean that the X in TXI is for Xperimental?  Total Experimental Instrument.

[LANCECASPER]

Just now, aviatoreb said:

So does that mean that the X in TXI is for Xperimental?  Total Experimental Instrument.

The TX means it's only certified for Texas . . lol

[aviatoreb]

Just now, LANCECASPER said:

The TX means it's only certified for Texas . . lol

TX Instruments?

[Niko182]

26 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

The "G3X" will never get certified since the "X" is for Experimental. They may certify a touch screen PFD and MFD . . . oh hold on, they did, they call it a TXI .. . lol

This makes sense. What does the TXI offer that the G3X doesn't. They're practically the same thing.