Mooney down @ Baker City, OR

[pdxphil]

Very sorry to hear the news. 

We flew over Baker City enroute from La Grande to the Alvord Desert on Saturday. It was smoky, really hot, and the air was rough. So rough that I actually took a motion sickness pill enroute which I've never done in 900+ hours of flying.

[neilpilot]

1 hour ago, pdxphil said:

Very sorry to hear the news. 

We flew over Baker City enroute from La Grande to the Alvord Desert on Saturday. It was smoky, really hot, and the air was rough. So rough that I actually took a motion sickness pill enroute which I've never done in 900+ hours of flying.

Hopefully not as PIC or a required crew member.

https://www.leftseat.com/motion-sickness/

[MyNameIsNobody]

I have a voice warning for gear and stall.  I was trying to climb once over a thin, but approaching cloud layer.  I was full power and pulling a little too much with fixation on getting over the clouds to clear on top.  Heard “stall” and immediately pushed and said “NOPE” we are going low in the clear and “hot” for this flight.  “It” CAN happen...

[rpcc]

20 hours ago, teejayevans said:

Kinda hard todo without rudder control, which is fairly rare in the small GA world. The ? Is, if the AP does it’s job, do you need spin recovery?

yes exactly - it should be much harder to stall/spin if the ap is providing the dope slap as you start to do something stupid due to distraction or whatever.  

[steingar]

I guess my point is that many aircraft have all sort of buzzers and bells meant to keep the pilots out of dutch.  I recall seeing a video of an aircraft landing with the gear warning blaring the whole time.  I fail to see how yet another buzzer or screen is going to really change things.  In moments of stress or distraction its just another expensive thing in the panel to ignore.  

[pdxphil]

On 8/16/2018 at 5:27 PM, neilpilot said:

Hopefully not as PIC or a required crew member.

https://www.leftseat.com/motion-sickness/

Good to know - thanks for the info. I took it with about 30 minutes remaining on our flight, but will stow this away for the future.

[DXB]

On 8/16/2018 at 8:27 PM, neilpilot said:

Hopefully not as PIC or a required crew member.

https://www.leftseat.com/motion-sickness/

Good article - only exception I would take to it is regarding the purported side effect-free efficacy of ginger root.  The evidence for its efficacy is as weak as its side effects -  I doubt there's an effective preventative for motion sickness available presently that lacks significant anti-cholinergic side effects  - no free lunch here.  The FAA prohibited drugs, which are only moderately effective, do indeed have poor side effect profiles that justify their prohibition.  Also, they  can work ok when taken prior to experiencing the motion trigger but are  less helpful when already sick.  

[jaylw314]

2 hours ago, DXB said:

Good article - only exception I would take to it is regarding the purported side effect-free efficacy of ginger root.  The evidence for its efficacy is as weak as its side effects -  I doubt there's an effective preventative for motion sickness available presently that lacks significant anti-cholinergic side effects  - no free lunch here.  The FAA prohibited drugs, which are only moderately effective, do indeed have poor side effect profiles that justify their prohibition.  Also, they  can work ok when taken prior to experiencing the motion trigger but are  less helpful when already sick.  

My read of the article was that they didn't tout ginger root's effectiveness, but I accept their position that even if the benefits are miniscule, at least there are no concerns.  The anti-emetic Zofran is not supposed to have anti-cholinergic side effects, but its side effects are less well understood than others, hence, probably verboten with the FAA also.

A strange sidebar--Phenergan and Compazine are essentially the same category of medications as the old Schizophrenia medications, Thorazine and Haldol (among a bunch of others).  Strangely, some of the other old Schizophrenia medications probably cause less sleepiness than Phenergan and Compazine, and are occasionally used (off label) as alternatives.  Interesting, but useless, since the FAA prohibits all antipsychotics as well...

[rpcc]

8 hours ago, steingar said:

I guess my point is that many aircraft have all sort of buzzers and bells meant to keep the pilots out of dutch.  I really seeing a video of an aircraft landing with the gear warning blaring the whole time.  I fail to see how yet another buzzer or screen is going to really change things.  In moments of stress or distraction its just another expensive thing in the panel to ignore.  

Ok I get it - but these fine people and many others didn't have the training or currency they needed to avoid their fate.  I'm hoping, perhaps unrealistically that some type of tech can help.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, steingar said:

I guess my point is that many aircraft have all sort of buzzers and bells meant to keep the pilots out of dutch.  I really seeing a video of an aircraft landing with the gear warning blaring the whole time.  I fail to see how yet another buzzer or screen is going to really change things.  In moments of stress or distraction its just another expensive thing in the panel to ignore.  

A sharpe spear in the seat cushion connected in parallel with the gear warning light and horn might get the pilot’s attention.

Clarence

[steingar]

14 hours ago, M20Doc said:

A sharpe spear in the seat cushion connected in parallel with the gear warning light and horn might get the pilot’s attention.

Clarence

Guys have stalled and spun aircraft equipped with stick shakers...

[aviatoreb]

54 minutes ago, steingar said:

Guys have stalled and spun aircraft equipped with stick shakers...

That does not imply that a stick shaker is or is not a good idea.  It only means that despite such a device, bad things can still happen.

The question would be if the incident of stall spins is decreased (significantly) or not with stick shakers versus identical airplanes without.  Not that such a data set would be available but this is the right question rather than anecdotal examples.

[pdxphil]

19 hours ago, rpcc said:

Ok I get it - but these fine people and many others didn't have the training or currency they needed to avoid their fate.  I'm hoping, perhaps unrealistically that some type of tech can help.

Where are the details on their 'training' and 'currency' - did I miss it somewhere?

[xcrmckenna]

That does not imply that a stick shaker is or is not a good idea.  It only means that despite such a device, bad things can still happen.
The question would be if the incident of stall spins is decreased (significantly) or not with stick shakers versus identical airplanes without.  Not that such a data set would be available but this is the right question rather than anecdotal examples.

You could easily see data on the safety of stick shakers on airplane models that started without them to data on updated models with them.

Granted I fall into the category that says no matter what you do to a cockpit to keep a pilot and passengers safe, there is a pilot saying hold my beer and watch....

I keep the saying in the back of my head “far better Pilots have let themselves be killed” so I could do it to myself as well.


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[aviatoreb]

52 minutes ago, xcrmckenna said:

I keep the saying in the back of my head “far better Pilots have let themselves be killed” so I could do it to myself as well.

Truth.

When I am on the internet pontificating, I worry about the population of pilots.  Including that fellow who says hold my beer.  When I fly, I am worried about me and my airplane and my passengers.  I believe a stick shaker would be a good thing and help me be slightly safer in some situations, and so I would want it if it were available.

[Marauder]

I keep the saying in the back of my head “far better Pilots have let themselves be killed” so I could do it to myself as well.


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Scott Crossfield’s accident was the watershed moment of that reality for me.


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[Hank]

4 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

That does not imply that a stick shaker is or is not a good idea.  It only means that despite such a device, bad things can still happen.

The question would be if the incident of stall spins is decreased (significantly) or not with stick shakers versus identical airplanes without.  Not that such a data set would be available but this is the right question rather than anecdotal examples.

A few years ago when my job involved writing both product specifications and manufacturing procedures, I kept this taped across the bottom of my monitor so I wouldn't forget:

"Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool."

No matter how much idiotproofing you do, the breed of idiots continues to devolve to lower and lower levels of idiocy . . . . . .

[xcrmckenna]

A few years ago when my job involved writing both product specifications and manufacturing procedures, I kept this taped across the bottom of my monitor so I wouldn't forget:
"Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool."
No matter how much idiotproofing you do, the breed of idiots continues to devolve to lower and lower levels of idiocy . . . . . .

I do resemble the end of that comment....


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[jaylw314]

5 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

That does not imply that a stick shaker is or is not a good idea.  It only means that despite such a device, bad things can still happen.

The question would be if the incident of stall spins is decreased (significantly) or not with stick shakers versus identical airplanes without.  Not that such a data set would be available but this is the right question rather than anecdotal examples.

That data should be available, since stick shakers were retrofitted to many aircraft in the early 1980's...

[steingar]

Bah! Instead of putting new widgets in aircraft for pilots to look at I think everyone should be trained to look at the blasted airspeed, not to mention the ball.  Keep the one up and the other  centered and you're not going to have that big a problem.  Doing so during a distraction is what causes so much damage, pain, death and agony.  Thankfully my CFI's disembodied voice has saved me on a number of occasions (one with a different CFI in the right seat), and I can only hope it keeps doing so.  Closest I've come to dutch was with the distraction of raising the gear in a mistrimed airplane.

[aviatoreb]

4 minutes ago, steingar said:

Bah! Instead of putting new widgets in aircraft for pilots to look at I think everyone should be trained to look at the blasted airspeed, not to mention the ball.  Keep the one up and the other  centered and you're not going to have that big a problem.  Doing so during a distraction is what causes so much damage, pain, death and agony.  Thankfully my CFI's disembodied voice has saved me on a number of occasions (one with a different CFI in the right seat), and I can only hope it keeps doing so.  Closest I've come to dutch was with the distraction of raising the gear in a mistrimed airplane.

I'm just curious?  Can I get widgets AND become a better trained pilot?  Or must I choose.  For that matter should I wear my seatbelt or should I just train more?

Hey I figure if two professional pilots in the cockpit of a highly automated transportation machine get a stick shaker, then who the heck am I to say since I am a superior pilot them and I don't need one.

 

[steingar]

1 minute ago, aviatoreb said:

I'm just curious?  Can I get widgets AND become a better trained pilot?  

Gadgets? We don need no stinkin' gadgets! 

[aviatoreb]

3 hours ago, steingar said:

Gadgets? We don need no stinkin' gadgets! 

I like the hat but I’m too tall to wear it in the Mooney.

[Mooney in Oz]

On 8/22/2018 at 5:41 AM, Hank said:

"Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool."

Transport category aircraft that have stick shakers also have stick pushers which activate if there is no recovery action, therefore preventing the stall before a spin develops.  That's the theory anyway.  

About 16 years ago at night at a country town named Bathurst here in Australia, (@mike_elliott knows the place) a full SAAB 340 stalled on downwind, starting with autopilot disconnect followed by a wing drop.  The aircraft was recovered by the Captain at 112 feet from the ground, averting a disaster. 

The extra weight, cost and certification of a stick shaker/pusher system would make it impossible for GA aircraft.

More info -

I just did a search for the incident and the investigation revealed the SAAB stalled before the stick shaker was activated due to ice accumulation, therefore the crew did not receive any warning of the impending stall.

Above info amended accordingly.

Edited August 23, 2018 by Mooney in Oz
Information amended

[Andy95W]

The stick pusher can be over ridden by brute force.  This was one of the things that happened in the Colgan crash in Buffalo, NY.

I wonder, in Victor's example above, if the stick pusher was over ridden or inoperative, and if investigators could tell by the FDR?