Gear not retracting

[Marauder]

When I place the gear switch in the up position nothing happens. No lights come on, no warnings no nothing. It’s as if the gear switch is bad or is not receiving power to be able to switch power to the motor.

When the Airspeed switch went bad whatever down stream knew the gear selector switch was in the up position but told me the gear was unsafe the buzzer went off and I was still able to raise the gear with the bypass switch.

I never said it won’t go up on jacks. but what I did was not unsafe. Flying the plane with the gear down is not an emergency. I was simply telling the forum what happens when I place my gear switch in the up position.

The question was what would cause no alarms to go off and the gear to remain down when I put the gear in the up position? Is the gear limit switches before the gear up/down switch, and would mean I won’t have power at the gear up/down switch? And Can i check with a volt meter? Are the limit switches after the gear up/down switch where I will have power to the up/down switch but if the limit switch is bad I won’t have power after them? Where is the Airspeed safety switch in the series?

And what is VOM?




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Do you have gear bypass switch? I agree, whether it is a squat or airspeed switch, when the lever is moved to the up position, you should get an unsafe warning and the horn goes off. Check the connection on the bypass switch as well.

If it isn’t the gear switch itself, the next logical item to check (aside of the connections) is the up switch. If it thinks the gear is already up, it won’t activate. I believe these are all in the belly area under the belly plates.


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[xcrmckenna]

Do you have gear bypass switch? I agree, whether it is a squat or airspeed switch, when the lever is moved to the up position, you should get an unsafe warning and the horn goes off. Check the connection on the bypass switch as well.

If it isn’t the gear switch itself, the next logical item to check (aside of the connections) is the up switch. If it thinks the gear is already up, it won’t activate. I believe these are all in the belly area under the belly plates.


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I do have a bypass switch. Pressing the bypass button with the gear up/down switch in the up position did nothing.

To me it seems like the system doesn’t know I’m moving the gear up/down switch to the up position. I checked the connections at the gear switch and they are tight. My first thought is the switch is bad. But I hope it’s the limit switch because there is $400 difference:)

When the gear did go up Sunday, it went up normal, the gear motor didn’t strain, there were no odd sounds or nothing other then the normal actions.

When the Airspeed switch went bad last year, and I moved the gear up/down switch to the up position it warned me the gear was still down with the gear unsafe light coming on and the alarm would go off. Non of that is happening now. Maybe a wire has came loose from the Airspeed switch to the gear up/down switch. But I’m not getting the warnings like I did last year.




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[Marauder]

I do have a bypass switch. Pressing the bypass button with the gear up/down switch in the up position did nothing.

To me it seems like the system doesn’t know I’m moving the gear up/down switch to the up position. I checked the connections at the gear switch and they are tight. My first thought is the switch is bad. But I hope it’s the limit switch because there is $400 difference:)

When the gear did go up Sunday, it went up normal, the gear motor didn’t strain, there were no odd sounds or nothing other then the normal actions.

When the Airspeed switch went bad last year, and I moved the gear up/down switch to the up position it warned me the gear was still down with the gear unsafe light coming on and the alarm would go off. Non of that is happening now. Maybe a wire has came loose from the Airspeed switch to the gear up/down switch. But I’m not getting the warnings like I did last year.




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I would check as much of the wiring/connectors as you can to eliminate chaffing or loose connections.

The bypass switch is in the circuit for the gear retraction circuit. I believe it is a normally open and only stays close when you push and hold it. If it failed in the “closed” position, I would think the gear would still be able to retract. I would just double check everything you can. Once you locate the up limit switch, clean it and give it a few gentle taps.

I’m headed over to the MSC in Jersey to drop off my plane for her annual. I’ll ask them while I am there if they have any ideas.

I do have a spare gear switch in my toy box. It was replaced trying to troubleshoot a gear issue I have 25 years ago. If it is the same as yours, I can send it out for troubleshooting. I suspect these switches are still pretty expensive and I would like to hold onto it as a spare.


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[xcrmckenna]

I would check as much of the wiring/connectors as you can to eliminate chaffing or loose connections.

The bypass switch is in the circuit for the gear retraction circuit. I believe it is a normally open and only stays close when you push and hold it. If it failed in the “closed” position, I would think the gear would still be able to retract. I would just double check everything you can. Once you locate the up limit switch, clean it and give it a few gentle taps.

I’m headed over to the MSC in Jersey to drop off my plane for her annual. I’ll ask them while I am there if they have any ideas.

I do have a spare gear switch in my toy box. It was replaced trying to troubleshoot a gear issue I have 25 years ago. If it is the same as yours, I can send it out for troubleshooting. I suspect these switches are still pretty expensive and I would like to hold onto it as a spare.


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That would be great, my msc thinks it’s the limit up switch but it will be probably two weeks before I can get it over to them. I will open up the belly and check wires. If your shop has any other ideas I would be glad to hear them.

Clearance said I can try the other terminals on my switch. If the switch is bad hopefully the other side of it is good.

Lasar quoted me $442.86 for a new switch so hopefully that’s not the issue and I can trouble shoot around it.


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[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, Marauder said:

 

 

Do you have gear bypass switch? I agree, whether it is a squat or airspeed switch, when the lever is moved to the up position, you should get an unsafe warning and the horn goes off. Check the connection on the bypass switch as well.

If it isn’t the gear switch itself, the next logical item to check (aside of the connections) is the up switch. If it thinks the gear is already up, it won’t activate. I believe these are all in the belly area under the belly plates.


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Another way to test the airspeed switch is to leave your pitot cover on when you take off.....   Gee, how do I know that??

[kris_adams]

On 7/23/2018 at 4:14 PM, teejayevans said:

 

Mine wouldn't retract about 6 months ago.  Turns out one of the passengers had bumped the emergency gear extension lever.  Quick latch of the handle and reset breaker and the gear came right up! This is now one of the last things I check before departing.

[Seth]

On 7/26/2018 at 2:57 PM, Kris_Adams said:

Mine wouldn't retract about 6 months ago.  Turns out one of the passengers had bumped the emergency gear extension lever.  Quick latch of the handle and reset breaker and the gear came right up! This is now one of the last things I check before departing.

That's one of my preflight checks from anecdotal stories such as this.

[kris_adams]

So I check during preflight as well as right before I take the runway...it was during about a 2 minute window that this happened...lesson learned

[wishboneash]

On 7/26/2018 at 11:57 AM, Kris_Adams said:

Mine wouldn't retract about 6 months ago.  Turns out one of the passengers had bumped the emergency gear extension lever.  Quick latch of the handle and reset breaker and the gear came right up! This is now one of the last things I check before departing.

Guilty as charged!

[chrixxer]

On 7/23/2018 at 12:06 PM, Mooneymite said:

...so, if the gear is not operating correctly, how did you know it was going to go back down?

 Wouldn't this trouble-shooting best be done while up on jacks?

Came here with the same thought. "Something's screwy with my gear - but hey, at least it's stuck down..."

[chrixxer]

On 7/23/2018 at 10:04 PM, ilovecornfields said:

You carry a pistol on every flight so you can commit suicide if you’re going to crash? Not judging, just clarifying.

Clearly, it's so he can shoot out his eyes. Re-read what he wrote - he doesn't want to see the ground approach at terminal velocity.

[xcrmckenna]

Came here with the same thought. "Something's screwy with my gear - but hey, at least it's stuck down..."

Another thought. You need to have an a&p to do a gear swing. We don’t have one at my home field.

The gear went up after ten or fifteen minutes. Pretty much right after I did all the check list stuff to trouble shoot it. The gear had no hesitation or issues going down. The first time it didn’t go up I didn’t know there was an issue till after takeoff. And went from there. The plane has an emergency retract system, I’m fully ready to use if need be. If the gear didn’t go down I would have been fully prepared.


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[chrixxer]

Another thought. You need to have an a&p to do a gear swing. We don’t have one at my home field.

The gear went up after ten or fifteen minutes. Pretty much right after I did all the check list stuff to trouble shoot it. The gear had no hesitation or issues going down. The first time it didn’t go up I didn’t know there was an issue till after takeoff. And went from there. The plane has an emergency retract system, I’m fully ready to use if need be. If the gear didn’t go down I would have been fully prepared.


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An emergency retract system? Or extension?

Hey, it worked out, cool. I'm just saying, my approach would have been different. If I had down and locked landing gear and something in the system was malfunctioning ... It's cheaper to bring an A&P out to your field than it is to repair the damage from a belly-in... And that emergency gear extension system may not have worked (I know of at least two instances where it failed; in both cases the "string broke" when the pilots went to crank the gear down manually)...


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[xcrmckenna]

An emergency retract system? Or extension?

Hey, it worked out, cool. I'm just saying, my approach would have been different. If I had down and locked landing gear and something in the system was malfunctioning ... It's cheaper to bring an A&P out to your field than it is to repair the damage from a belly-in... And that emergency gear extension system may not have worked (I know of at least two instances where it failed; in both cases the "string broke" when the pilots went to crank the gear down manually)...


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That’s cool, each their own. Like I said that’s the joys of being PIC. And yes you are correct I meant the emergency gear extension.

Are you saying if you moved the gear up/down switch to the up position on take off and the gear didn’t go up. You would not have tried to move the switch again down then up again? You wouldn’t have checked your breakers, you wouldn’t of checked to make sure the manual extension wasn’t properly stowed, and you wouldn’t have pressed your gear by pass button? Not any of those things? You would just immediately landed?


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[chrixxer]

1 hour ago, xcrmckenna said:

You would just immediately landed?

These days? Yes. But I'm a lot more risk-averse than I was a year ago. If a critical system hiccups on me, but I'm in a working configuration, I'm not touching anything related to that configuration until I'm safely on the ground (or can glide to a rubber-on-hard-surface landing in an airport environment, as applicable). If I was at some remote field and I could get to a home base or a field with better services by leaving the gear down and pulling back to 19.5/1950, and flying there slowly, I probably would have done that (Vle on my Mooney is 120 mph), but after checking basics (tripped breaker - why was it tripped? ... Partially extended emergency extension handle (I don't know if that cuts off the electric system in the F, the owner's manual doesn't mention it, just says "[d]o not operate landing gear electrically with handcrank engaged"), yeah, I'd reset that. But if the switch is failing, no, I'm not going to hope it intermittently works again when the gear need to come down. If the breaker is tripped, I want to know why, and that it's not going to trip again when I need the gear down. Etc. All things that are much easier, and safer, to diagnose on the ground.

Edited July 31, 2018 by chrixxer

[xcrmckenna]

These days? Yes. But I'm a lot more risk-averse than I was a year ago. If a critical system hiccups on me, but I'm in a working configuration, I'm not touching anything related to that configuration until I'm safely on the ground (or can glide to a rubber-on-hard-surface landing in an airport environment, as applicable). If I was at some remote field and I could get to a home base or a field with better services by leaving the gear down and pulling back to 19.5/1950, and flown there slowly, I probably would have done that (Vle on my Mooney is 120 mph), but after checking basics (tripped breaker - why was it tripped? ... Partially extended emergency extension handle (I don't know if that cuts off the electric system in the F, the owner's manual doesn't mention it, just says "[d]o not operate landing gear electrically with handcrank engaged"), yeah, I'd reset that. But if the switch is failing, no, I'm not going to hope it intermittently works again when the gear need to come down. If the breaker is tripped, I want to know why, and that it's not going to trip again when I need the gear down. Etc. All things that are much easier, and safer, to diagnose on the ground.

If your answer is yes you would land immediately, that’s fine. But I would disagree in the sense after my issues with my Airspeed switch last year I’ve realized the gear not going up is not an emergency in its self to me.

When I took off from my Airport at 3,700 msl the density altitude was close to 6,100’’ and my cruise alt was for 8,500 msl and a 35 minute flight. So it was going to be a long climb but a short flight. I was prepared for a slower climb out then normal. I planed for a climb at 110 mph indicated. It gave me a little faster then Vy for better cooling and still more then 500’ per minute.

I’m not in the group that raises their gear once off the ground. My stall speed is lower with the gear down and on take off if the engine stops I want to hit the ground as slow as I can. I raised the gear switch after all the runway is used up. Then I turn off the electric fuel pump, then at 400’ I raise the flaps.

I was meeting my expected speed and climb rate on climb out but the plane still felt slow

Then I thought what if something is down or trailing. I verified my gear switch was up and checked my flaps “cuz that has been forgot a few times” both switches were up. Then I looked at the gear up switch and saw it was green gear down I was still in climb and not even a mile from the airport from a straight out departure. I made multiple checks to verify the gear was indeed down, before I even started to trouble shoot getting the gear up. And all the time making sure I was watching my Airspeed and climb performance flying the plane.

One of my thoughts was did I remember hearing the gear go up or was I focused more on my Airspeed and climb out due to the high density alt and just went on to my other check lists and I couldn’t answer that at the time. But that was because I prioritized my Airspeed and my vertical climb rate over listening for the gear. And it goes back to if the gear doesn’t go up I still fly the plane. As long as I have plenty of fuel it’s far from an emergency.

When I take off and the wheels are above “the settling back down on the runway and stopping” height” the only type of landing I let myself think about is a straight ahead engine out landing till I’m out of the pattern with enough time to get myself set back up for landing.

I gave myself as much time as I needed to verify the gear was indeed still down and not just stuck half way that everything was still in the green and could land. And I wasn’t going to do that in the pattern. I continued to fly the plane and at no time was there an emergency. And if the gear had not gone down that to me is still not an emergency that should give me a potential to stop flying the plane.

I was prepared to fly the rest of the flight gear down because the time I spent verifying the gear was indeed still down then going through the trouble shooting steps to get the gear up I was more then half way to my destination. And that didn’t bother me in the least. But when the gear did decide to go up after I moved the gear switch to the up position and the gear went up with out any weird sounds and the indicator showed it was up. I left it up. When it was time to put the gear down to land I was prepared to do an emergency extension if it didn’t. But the gear went down without a problem. I was even talking to myself that if the gear didn’t get down with the emergency extension to still fly the plane. I was prepared for the situation because I took my time to think out my actions and I still don’t regret them.

But back to my original question and reason why I started this thread do you know what my gear issue could be?




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[Marauder]

5 hours ago, xcrmckenna said:

 

 

If your answer is yes you would land immediately, that’s fine. But I would disagree in the sense after my issues with my Airspeed switch last year I’ve realized the gear not going up is not an emergency in its self to me.

When I took off from my Airport at 3,700 msl the density altitude was close to 6,100’’ and my cruise alt was for 8,500 msl and a 35 minute flight. So it was going to be a long climb but a short flight. I was prepared for a slower climb out then normal. I planed for a climb at 110 mph indicated. It gave me a little faster then Vy for better cooling and still more then 500’ per minute.

I’m not in the group that raises their gear once off the ground. My stall speed is lower with the gear down and on take off if the engine stops I want to hit the ground as slow as I can. I raised the gear switch after all the runway is used up. Then I turn off the electric fuel pump, then at 400’ I raise the flaps.

I was meeting my expected speed and climb rate on climb out but the plane still felt slow

Then I thought what if something is down or trailing. I verified my gear switch was up and checked my flaps “cuz that has been forgot a few times” both switches were up. Then I looked at the gear up switch and saw it was green gear down I was still in climb and not even a mile from the airport from a straight out departure. I made multiple checks to verify the gear was indeed down, before I even started to trouble shoot getting the gear up. And all the time making sure I was watching my Airspeed and climb performance flying the plane.

One of my thoughts was did I remember hearing the gear go up or was I focused more on my Airspeed and climb out due to the high density alt and just went on to my other check lists and I couldn’t answer that at the time. But that was because I prioritized my Airspeed and my vertical climb rate over listening for the gear. And it goes back to if the gear doesn’t go up I still fly the plane. As long as I have plenty of fuel it’s far from an emergency.

When I take off and the wheels are above “the settling back down on the runway and stopping” height” the only type of landing I let myself think about is a straight ahead engine out landing till I’m out of the pattern with enough time to get myself set back up for landing.

I gave myself as much time as I needed to verify the gear was indeed still down and not just stuck half way that everything was still in the green and could land. And I wasn’t going to do that in the pattern. I continued to fly the plane and at no time was there an emergency. And if the gear had not gone down that to me is still not an emergency that should give me a potential to stop flying the plane.

I was prepared to fly the rest of the flight gear down because the time I spent verifying the gear was indeed still down then going through the trouble shooting steps to get the gear up I was more then half way to my destination. And that didn’t bother me in the least. But when the gear did decide to go up after I moved the gear switch to the up position and the gear went up with out any weird sounds and the indicator showed it was up. I left it up. When it was time to put the gear down to land I was prepared to do an emergency extension if it didn’t. But the gear went down without a problem. I was even talking to myself that if the gear didn’t get down with the emergency extension to still fly the plane. I was prepared for the situation because I took my time to think out my actions and I still don’t regret them.

But back to my original question and reason why I started this thread do you know what my gear issue could be?




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Man -- you are spending a lot of time rehashing and justifying what you did. Any of us who have flown a long time has made a decision about whether to continue a flight or not. Continuing a flight with oil streaming up the windshield falls into the "not so smart" category. Continuing with the gear in the unknown status falls into the "if the gear is really up instead of down and I need to do a belly landing, where should I do it?" category. Unfortunately, we can't (sans those with GoPros mounted on the belly) see the physical location of the gear. Nor can we determine if it is truly locked in position. When you put the gear in the up position, it might have begun retracting an inch when the up limit switch said it was up. You made a decision and the gear was where it needed to be.

In 1994, I was flying back from New Jersey to New York. Just took off, started the gear retraction and everything electrically indicated the gear was up. The floor indicator however still showed "gear down". I'm 300+ miles from home airport. What should I do? I determined that the gear was indeed up through the expected plane performance (not flying nose high and airspeed in the normal cruise range). I go home. I get to my home airport (where my mechanic is), extend the gear and see the electrical indicators show gear down. The floor indicator hasn't moved since takeoff. I knew the system well and knew that the floor indicator is tied to a rod and attached to the gear. I fell into that "if the gear is really up instead of down and I need to do a belly landing, where should I do it?" category. Fortunately the gear was down and it was locked. Thinking about it afterwards, I could have done the manual extension to be safe.

And to answer your question, unless you have eliminated things, the usual culprits are in play -- up limit switch, gear switch, short somewhere.

[Yetti]

Pretty sure a pilot can jack up a plane to change a tire.   Not sure why a pilot can't swing the gear.   Pretty sure that would be a good thing to do after changing the tires.    It is good practice to attend the part of the annual where the emergency gear extension is performed.   When you need it, you don't want it to be your first time.

[xcrmckenna]

Pretty sure a pilot can jack up a plane to change a tire.   Not sure why a pilot can't swing the gear.   Pretty sure that would be a good thing to do after changing the tires.    It is good practice to attend the part of the annual where the emergency gear extension is performed.   When you need it, you don't want it to be your first time.

I agree. But it’s been discussed and debated on here that doing a gear swing requires an a&p.


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[Hank]

2 minutes ago, Yetti said:

It is good practice to attend the part of the annual where the emergency gear extension is performed.   When you need it, you don't want it to be your first time.

Did this in the air during transition training. Learned how it works, and to fold the handle back in before resetting the breaker and raising them normally. I got a closeup look at the yoke just before my headset was snatched violently from my head . . .

Also did a real emergency extension after descending out of the clouds and making a procedure turn in a VOR-A approach along the WV-OH border, while training with my CFII. Did everything that needed doing before fishing out the Owners Manual from the right seatback pocket and opening it to the right section for my instructor.

Sometimes do it myself during annual, but not every year. It doesn't always fit into the Owner-Assisted work breakdown.

[carusoam]

Can somebody second the gearswing only by an A&P statement?

That one surprises even me...

Sure, there is a lot that can go wrong if the gear begins to swing unexpectedly....

Good to have a mechanic to keep you from hurting yourself... if unfamiliar...

The FAA wants to keep you from hurting others... hence all the rules about maintenance... who can do it, how it needs to be done... so the unknowing don’t get stuck by your shortcomings....

It is generally OK to hurt yourself, not other innocent people...

Kind of like it is OK to fly low where nobody else is... say you decide to fly low over trees and mountains....you are on your own, and it is OK.... fly low over a beach with sun bathers... that is bad...

Switches get dirty... cleaning and lubricating with the proper (electronics cleaner?) material probably makes a lot of sense...

Same for the limit switches...

I have a DVM that I use... digital volt meter... checks continuity on switches... or voltage...

If you can put the plane on jacks... check what is working and what is not working...

build a chart... for each switch... leave spaces for mechanical positions and the related electrical output... then check with whatever meter you have...

Using jacks... locking collars are a good idea.  Keep things level...

Swinging the gear... everyone knows when you are about to hit the switch...

Be extra careful when the gear switch isn’t known to be working... poking around the limit switches will probably cause things to move...quickly...

Do as much as you can while the electricity is off/locked out... normal mechanical/electrical safety rules apply.

Nothing will suck more than dropping the plane while your arms are wrapped inside the wheel wells...

Limit switches are under the belly usually, so it is generally hard to be near the big swinging moving parts...

having a hose to build a few psi of air pressure is going to be good.  Check the ASI for how much air is needed to get to 65kias...

without a hose, the bybass button is going to need to be working... might as well check it with your meter...

While you are there... check the throttle out, gear up, combination, buzzer should be working...

I know I left things out of this list... just don’t remember how much or what they are...

Now about a PP swinging the gear? How on that?

Best regards,

-a-

[xcrmckenna]

Can somebody second the gearswing only by an A&P statement?
That one surprises even me...
Sure, there is a lot that can go wrong if the gear begins to swing unexpectedly....
Good to have a mechanic to keep you from hurting yourself... if unfamiliar...
The FAA wants to keep you from hurting others... hence all the rules about maintenance... who can do it, how it needs to be done... so the unknowing don’t get stuck by your shortcomings....
It is generally OK to hurt yourself, not other innocent people...
Kind of like it is OK to fly low where nobody else is... say you decide to fly low over trees and mountains....you are on your own, and it is OK.... fly low over a beach with sun bathers... that is bad...
Switches get dirty... cleaning and lubricating with the proper (electronics cleaner?) material probably makes a lot of sense...
Same for the limit switches...
I have a DVM that I use... digital volt meter... checks continuity on switches... or voltage...
If you can put the plane on jacks... check what is working and what is not working...
build a chart... for each switch... leave spaces for mechanical positions and the related electrical output... then check with whatever meter you have...
Using jacks... locking collars are a good idea.  Keep things level...
Swinging the gear... everyone knows when you are about to hit the switch...
Be extra careful when the gear switch isn’t known to be working... poking around the limit switches will probably cause things to move...quickly...
Do as much as you can while the electricity is off/locked out... normal mechanical/electrical safety rules apply.
Nothing will suck more than dropping the plane while your arms are wrapped inside the wheel wells...
Limit switches are under the belly usually, so it is generally hard to be near the big swinging moving parts...
having a hose to build a few psi of air pressure is going to be good.  Check the ASI for how much air is needed to get to 65kias...
without a hose, the bybass button is going to need to be working... might as well check it with your meter...
While you are there... check the throttle out, gear up, combination, buzzer should be working...
I know I left things out of this list... just don’t remember how much or what they are...
Now about a PP swinging the gear? How on that?
Best regards,
-a-

I don’t remember off hand what the thread was but@kortopates and I discussed it.


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[Andy95W]

34 minutes ago, xcrmckenna said:

I agree. But it’s been discussed and debated on here that doing a gear swing requires an a&p.


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There is no regulation that requires an A&P license to jack an airplane and swing the gear.

OTOH, if a gear swing is a requirement for maintenance that was performed, the logbooks require an entry signed by an A&P.

[Yetti]

Most all jacking of cars and planes should be done with secondary "jackstands"   saw horses under the wings will save your arms in the wing wells,   still might be lots of bent metal.

[xcrmckenna]

There is no regulation that requires an A&P license to jack an airplane and swing the gear.
OTOH, if a gear swing is a requirement for maintenance that was performed, the logbooks require an entry signed by an A&P.

It’s not a reg, but from what I understand it doesn’t fall under preventative maintenance


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