Favorite IFR Departure...Why?

[SAMFOX]

In light of recent discussions about IFR flying and DP procedures, what is your preferred/favorite way (legal way) to depart IFR? Have you used any departure procedures that are less often used than other such as VCOA, and what were some lessons learned? Also, what are your personal weather minimums? 

[Steve W]

Preferred: towered airport with radar vectors in flat terrain.

Most interesting, the KSQL VFR to IFR departure... "DEPART RUNWAY 30: Fly runway heading until past the Diamond-Shaped Waterway, then turn right heading 120°. Keep turn within 2 NM of San Carlos Airport for vectors to [assigned route/fix]. Maintain VFR at or below 1,100' until crossing the OAK R-165, then maintain [assigned altitude] (typically 2,000' or 2,100') Expect [assigned altitude] 5 minutes after departure." Basically to keep you out of SFO and the SFO arrival path.

[Jerry 5TJ]

The SARDD departure runway 33 out of Aspen is...interesting.  You have to intercept a back course localizer that's offset from the runway, and it has reversed sensing outbound (normal, to wit) and you have to climb at least 460' per nmi (not fpm) to 14,000.  At 120 KIAS and zero wind that's over 1,100 feet per minute passing 14,000.  And there are rocks to both sides. 

 

 

[ArtVandelay]

Preferred: towered airport with radar vectors in flat terrain.
Most interesting, the KSQL VFR to IFR departure... "DEPART RUNWAY 30: Fly runway heading until past the Diamond-Shaped Waterway, then turn right heading 120°. Keep turn within 2 NM of San Carlos Airport for vectors to [assigned route/fix]. Maintain VFR at or below 1,100' until crossing the OAK R-165, then maintain [assigned altitude] (typically 2,000' or 2,100') Expect [assigned altitude] 5 minutes after departure." Basically to keep you out of SFO and the SFO arrival path.

And if you don’t repeat that back in less than 30 seconds your Garmin radio will go into stuck mic mode and terminate transmission, ask me how I know.

[Hank]

My favorite IFR departure is to takeoff VFR, with clouds high enough that I can clear obstructions before going into the soup. Doesn't always matter where I start, I've been unable to do this departing FXE . . . . But it's my favorite, and certainly lower stress.

[SAMFOX]

1 hour ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

The SARDD departure runway 33 out of Aspen is...interesting.  You have to intercept a back course localizer that's offset from the runway, and it has reversed sensing outbound (normal, to wit) and you have to climb at least 460' per nmi (not fpm) to 14,000.  At 120 KIAS and zero wind that's over 1,100 feet per minute passing 14,000.  And there are rocks to both sides. 

 

 

Your post makes a good point about needing to convert ft/nm to fit/min! Interesting that LOC/DME-E also uses a separate LOC-BC for missed approach.

[kpaul]

1 hour ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

you have to climb at least 460' per nmi (not fpm) to 14,000.  At 120 KIAS and zero wind that's over 1,100 feet per minute passing 14,000. 

OK, so my math is a little shaky, however 120 KIAS is 2 nm per minute.  460' X 2 = 920 fpm.  Or 2.3 statute miles per min, so 1058 fpm climb.   But your point is solid, without pre-planning and actually running TOLD it would be easy to not be able to make the climb.  Pretty sure my M20F will not meet the performance requirements on the best day.

I have flown in and out of Aspen in a PC-12, it is an interesting location to fly.  On the same trip I dropped into Leadville just for kicks.

[SAMFOX]

9 minutes ago, Hank said:

My favorite IFR departure is to takeoff VFR, with clouds high enough that I can clear obstructions before going into the soup. Doesn't always matter where I start, I've been unable to do this departing FXE . . . . But it's my favorite, and certainly lower stress.

Ha! I find just flying out of FXE can be stress enough...I got my first 2 hours of Mooney time there. My cousin has a J hangared  there and her and her other half got me some dual time...so appreciated that, and really enjoyed her plane!

[SAMFOX]

6 minutes ago, kpaul said:

OK, so my math is a little shaky, however 120 KIAS is 2 nm per minute.  460' X 2 = 920 fpm.  Or 2.3 statute miles per min, so 1058 fpm climb.   But your point is solid, without pre-planning and actually running TOLD it would be easy to not be able to make the climb.  Pretty sure my M20F will not meet the performance requirements on the best day.

I have flown in and out of Aspen in a PC-12, it is an interesting location to fly.  On the same trip I dropped into Leadville just for kicks.

All valid and most important is knowing your aircraft’s performance and what conditions affect it. Sure numbers seem doable until you realize oh it’s to 14,000 ft...Not in a J! And always remember if in doubt fly the ODP first...

[Jerry 5TJ]

5 minutes ago, kpaul said:

OK, so my math is a little shaky, however 120 KIAS is 2 nm per minute.  460' X 2 = 920 fpm.  Or 2.3 statute miles per min, so 1058 fpm climb.   But your point is solid, without pre-planning and actually running TOLD it would be easy to not be able to make the climb.  Pretty sure my M20F will not meet the performance requirements on the best day.

I have flown in and out of Aspen in a PC-12, it is an interesting location to fly.  On the same trip I dropped into Leadville just for kicks.

At 14,000' 120 KIAS is closer to 150 KTAS and that's 2.5 nm over the ground per minute ignoring wind, so 2.5 nautical miles x the minimum required 460 feet per nmi is about 1,150 fpm minimum.  The required rate of climb actually increases as you climb at a constant indicated airspeed...  And if you're headed downwind, it gets worse.

[SAMFOX]

2 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

At 14,000' 120 KIAS is closer to 150 KTAS and that's 2.5 nm over the ground per minute ignoring wind, so 2.5 nautical miles x the minimum required 460 feet per nmi is about 1,150 fpm minimum.  The required rate of climb actually increases as you climb at a constant indicated airspeed...  And if you're headed downwind, it gets worse.

Thank goodness for that extra 48 ft/nm or 24% ROC we shooting the 40:1 OCS...just another buffer for performance deviations from both pilot and plane! Don’t forget your 35 ft screen height!

[Jerry 5TJ]

4 minutes ago, SAMFOX said:

Thank goodness for that extra 48 ft/nm or 24% ROC we shooting the 40:1 OCS...just another buffer for performance deviations from both pilot and plane! Don’t forget your 35 ft screen height!

Ok, I’ve flown the departure in IMC, in moderate turbulence. Even at 2,000 fpm (not in a Mooney) there’s still a lot of red and yellow on the terrain display and those nasty blobs don’t recede quickly.   

You asked for interesting IFR departures: The offset back course procedure out of Aspen meets the threshold for me. 

[SAMFOX]

13 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

Ok, I’ve flown the departure in IMC, in moderate turbulence. Even at 2,000 fpm (not in a Mooney) there’s still a lot of red and yellow on the terrain display and those nasty blobs don’t recede quickly.   

You asked for interesting IFR departures: The offset back course procedure out of Aspen meets the threshold for me. 

That is definitely a good one! If you have a chance to drop into KEGE just to the north there is the “Meeker Two” it is also an interesting departure which requires you to cross the DBL R-326 then make a right turn back to intercept the DBL R-322 radial outbout! Require about 1900-2000ft/min (dependent on what your flying) to 15000. This is also a field you could do a VCOA at with 4200-3. What a great place to fly into and out of!!!

[flyboy0681]

1 hour ago, SAMFOX said:

Ha! I find just flying out of FXE can be stress enough...I got my first 2 hours of Mooney time there. My cousin has a J hangared  there and her and her other half got me some dual time...so appreciated that, and really enjoyed her plane!

I'm not familiar with that registration down here, is your cousin on MS?

[Hank]

2 hours ago, SAMFOX said:

Ha! I find just flying out of FXE can be stress enough...I got my first 2 hours of Mooney time there. My cousin has a J hangared  there and her and her other half got me some dual time...so appreciated that, and really enjoyed her plane!

I saw that plane in Dothan, AL, last fall, hiding from a hurricane. I don't recognize the paint job, but it had a canopy cover on--I thought it had more blue in it. Wish I had taken a picture, but the winds were squirrelly and I wanted to get home before they got too ugly. My registration is N444DJ . . . .

[M20F]

IFR departures are breezy it is the IMC departures that get interesting.  

[M016576]

My favorite IFR departure? A VFR climb on course.  

Most people who disagree probably haven’t flown for a living

[M20F]

22 minutes ago, M016576 said:

My favorite IFR departure? A VFR VMC climb on course.

Fixed it for you ;-)

[M016576]

8 minutes ago, M20F said:

Fixed it for you ;-)

Nope....

a VFR climb on course....

• Enter the NAVAID or intersection, which will establish you on your route as the first entry in the "ROUTE-OF-FLIGHT" section of the flight plan
• ATC will issue instructions as to when to contact ARTCC for your IFR clearance
• Must write "request VFR climb on course" in the remarks section of the flight plan
• Remain below CLASS A airspace and fly VFR cruising altitudes until issued an IFR clearance
• Removes the requirement for the controller to provide any separation in class E airspace

 

you can also request these with clearance delivery typically.  They a perfect for a day where you see a bunch of VMC holes above the field, but the IFR departure procedure would put you in the clouds.... 

 

edit: VMC departures are great, but if you’re IFR- you still have to follow the procedure... unless it’s a VFR-climb-on-course  (which is still.. well... kind of IFR  )

Edited April 9, 2018 by M016576

[M20F]

19 minutes ago, M016576 said:

Nope....

a VFR climb on course....

• Enter the NAVAID or intersection, which will establish you on your route as the first entry in the "ROUTE-OF-FLIGHT" section of the flight plan
• ATC will issue instructions as to when to contact ARTCC for your IFR clearance
• Must write "request VFR climb on course" in the remarks section of the flight plan
• Remain below CLASS A airspace and fly VFR cruising altitudes until issued an IFR clearance
• Removes the requirement for the controller to provide any separation in class E airspace

 

you can also request these with clearance delivery typically.  They a perfect for a day where you see a bunch of VMC holes above the field, but the IFR departure procedure would put you in the clouds.... 

 

edit: VMC departures are great, but if you’re IFR- you still have to follow the procedure... unless it’s a VFR-climb-on-course  (which is still.. well... kind of IFR  )

Read the second bullet. 

[gsxrpilot]

52 minutes ago, M016576 said:

My favorite IFR departure? A VFR climb on course.  

Most people who disagree probably haven’t flown for a living

Nope, haven't ever flown for a living... it doesn't pay well enough 

[M016576]

8 minutes ago, M20F said:

Read the second bullet. 

Read my edit   

[M016576]

7 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Nope, haven't ever flown for a living... it doesn't pay well enough 

Hah! Now you’re talking!

but until one finds a way to buying themselves a carrier arrestment, jet-on-jet air combat or strafing terrorists in Afghanistan... there’s something to be said for flying for a living

Edited April 9, 2018 by M016576