Porpoising leads to gear collapse accident

[TomR]

Bear in mine when I say “when I was new to my MSE” that was only 9 months ago. In any case, take a pilot who’s just crossed the 150 hour mark all of that a 172, put him in a totally new plane..... you get the picture. Bring the plane back from Florida with a very experienced pilot and do a rather poor job trying to land for the first couple times. Go through transition with a fantastic instructor and nail every one of the landings. Ok now I’ve got this down pat right. Fly one or two more times solo no problems. Time to get night currency. First two landings perfect...it’s late..let’s nail the last one and go home. The “comfort factor” has now set in big time. First bounce takes me by surprise but no worries I watch my instructor bounce and just hold it of till it settles to the runway. Second bounce was much harder. Thinking this is not good I shove power and go around because I know on the third bounce I’m got hit the prop or worse. Heart racing I bring her around for a perfect touchdown. 

 

Long story short 70 hours later I treat every landing in every airplane the same. Focus, consider the type of airplane I’m flying and fly it correctly. I’m no longer afraid to swallow my ego and go around. I know how lucky I am that I didn’t damage my beautiful new bird that night and I’m a better pilot for it having learned that lesson. No matter how experience we are or are not every flight needs great focus because when if we every let the comfort factor set in we are bound to mess up. 

 

Thank god god the accident pilot is ok. Planes can be fixed but people can’t. Get your bird fixed and get flying! 

[Steve W]

5 minutes ago, TomR said:

Get your bird fixed and get flying! 

At present, that's several months out. Once I deal with getting the fixing started my tentative plan is to go do some back-to-stick-and-rudder training, perhaps find a tail wheel and a CFI and go work on the basics and then maybe move back up to a 172 for a while. Obviously the FAA may have some opinions on the matter as well.

 

[DXB]

33 minutes ago, Steve W said:

At present, that's several months out. Once I deal with getting the fixing started my tentative plan is to go do some back-to-stick-and-rudder training, perhaps find a tail wheel and a CFI and go work on the basics and then maybe move back up to a 172 for a while. Obviously the FAA may have some opinions on the matter as well.

 

I’ve had a close call that ended in just a bald spot on a tire but easily could have gone this way. Don’t beat your self up too much. Obviously get training., but a few hours with a thoughtful, experienced Mooney instructor may go a lot further toward making you feel competent in the saddle again than any amount of work in a 172. Good luck!

[Yetti]

51 minutes ago, Steve W said:

At present, that's several months out. Once I deal with getting the fixing started my tentative plan is to go do some back-to-stick-and-rudder training, perhaps find a tail wheel and a CFI and go work on the basics and then maybe move back up to a 172 for a while. Obviously the FAA may have some opinions on the matter as well.

 

Not a reportable incident.  

[Bolter]

7 hours ago, kortopates said:

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2018/02/mooney-m20j-201-n925jh-incident.html 

One of three Mooney landing incidents this past week, including a gear up landing and off field landing, but this one made it into the preliminary accident reports.

No reported injuries thankfully. Like many of these, this Mooney was registered less than 1 year ago so lack of experience in type and perhaps lacks of transition training may have played a role.

But Mooney's are not unique to porpoising incidents, just probably the most frequent airframe to see them. But here is a very brief write-up including a short video of a piper porpoising on landing to a nose gear failure. http://www.boldmethod.com/blog/2014/01/the-danger-of-porpoise-landings/   You'll often hear Mooney pilots say it was the third bounce that led to the prop strike, but I think I counted many more bounces in the short video before it was over.

Be careful out there!

Thanks for posting the link to the Piper video @kortopates. Until now, I had no idea how extreme porpoising was, and that it included the mains coming back into the air.   I realize now that I have never porpoised the plane.

I had always envisioned "porpoising" was the more subtle "skipping" of the nose gear when it touches down lightly with a little hop and the mains stay firmly planted.  Is this lesser situation a concern at all?  Or just an indication that the nose is touching lightly and the runway surface may have some variation in it?

-dan

[Piloto]

Porpoising can happens any time you are landing a little bit too fast. It is more common on low wing planes. As the wing comes close to the ground with full flaps it goes into ground effect shifting the center of lift back causing the nose to drop. Purpoising is more prone to happen in gusty and crosswind conditions. To avoid it I trim all the way back with the trim switch on the yoke as I am flaring and retract the flaps just before touch down.

José

[Hector]

I have to say, after 7 years of Mooney ownership averaging 125 hours per year I land my Mooney no different that any other plane I’ve flown. I’m not always perfect with my approach speeds, sometimes I’m a little fast, sometimes with flaps, sometimes without, etc. But what is always consistent is that the tires don’t touch the ground until the wing has run out of lift. I hold the nose up until she’s done flying and settles on the mains.

 

 

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[kortopates]

[mention=7862]kortopates[/mention]. Until now, I had no idea how extreme porpoising was, and that it included the mains coming back into the air.   I realize now that I have never porpoised the plane.

I had always envisioned "porpoising" was the more subtle "skipping" of the nose gear when it touches down lightly with a little hop and the mains stay firmly planted.  Is this lesser situation a concern at all?  Or just an indication that the nose is touching lightly and the runway surface may have some variation in it?

-dan

Agreed that is not porpoising and easily corrected by just holding the nose wheel off with more and more back pressure (unless there is a stiff crosswind). Plus that will help you slow down faster before the brakes will.

 

Plus the same thing can happen on takeoff if one doesn't use a little back pressure on some of the less than great runways.

 

 

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[gsxrpilot]

Come fly formation with the Mooney Caravan and learn how to make the smoothest landings ever... no flaps and 90 knots to the numbers.

Long (6000 ft min) runways required 

[N9201A]

Come fly formation with the Mooney Caravan and learn how to make the smoothest landings ever... no flaps and 90 knots to the numbers.
Long (6000 ft min) runways required 

Wait, a Mooney can land without flaps? Next you’ll be telling me there’s no such thing as the step, I can’t run 26” and 2400 rpm, and LOP will burn up my engine!

Sorry Rocket, couldn’t resist!

SteveW, sorry to hear it, glad you’re OK. On the repairs, good luck.

One other note: Unfortunately, reportability doesn’t limit the FSDO’s discretion to ask for a 709 ride. If you get such notice or call, suggest you talk to an AOPA panel counsel BEFORE you respond substantively. And if you have to do that ride, pick the simplest SEL aircraft you can rent and have mastered, like a 150 or 172. Make it easy on yourself.

[jetdriven]

3 hours ago, Piloto said:

 Purpoising is more prone to happen in gusty and crosswind conditions. To avoid it I trim all the way back with the trim switch on the yoke as I am flaring and retract the flaps just before touch down.

José

Trimming the flare is bad technique and it reveals itself when you try to firewall it for for a go around and you can’t control the airplane anymore. This is frequently covered up with another bad technique which is adding partial power and retrimming before firewalling it for a go around.  

Trim the airplane for speed and learn how to land it properly. Might I also suggest Don kaye’s video. 

[Danb]

Let the war begin, I'm not recommending to trim or not in the flare, it up to you all, except during my training provided by Mooney when I bought my second Mooney it was stressed to flare to the ground then again 17 years later during transition training from Mooney in my new Bravo,  just stating. 

[chrisk]

6 hours ago, jetdriven said:

Trimming the flare is bad technique and it reveals itself when you try to firewall it for for a go around and you can’t control the airplane anymore. This is frequently covered up with another bad technique which is adding partial power and retrimming before firewalling it for a go around.  

Trim the airplane for speed and learn how to land it properly. Might I also suggest Don kaye’s video. 

I have a 231 and with two folks up front and an empty plane, it is near forward CG.  To get proper final speed with full flaps, it requires almost full trim up.  And it is certainly interesting when going around, requiring some force to push the nose down.  I don't think trimming the flare would make much of a difference.  That said I don't trim in the flare, mostly because it seems less precise than using the yoke. 

[chrisk]

18 hours ago, kortopates said:

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2018/02/mooney-m20j-201-n925jh-incident.html 

One of three Mooney landing incidents this past week, including a gear up landing and off field landing, but this one made it into the preliminary accident reports.

No reported injuries thankfully. Like many of these, this Mooney was registered less than 1 year ago so lack of experience in type and perhaps lacks of transition training may have played a role.

But Mooney's are not unique to porpoising incidents, just probably the most frequent airframe to see them. But here is a very brief write-up including a short video of a piper porpoising on landing to a nose gear failure. http://www.boldmethod.com/blog/2014/01/the-danger-of-porpoise-landings/   You'll often hear Mooney pilots say it was the third bounce that led to the prop strike, but I think I counted many more bounces in the short video before it was over.

Be careful out there!

I enjoyed the video.   It's amazing to see the porpoising progress when viewed from the side.

 

[M016576]

Easiest way to avoid a prop strike is to not be fast on your approach.

easiest way to not be fast on your approach is to fly on-speed AoA, and a disciplined pattern (small corrections early on will save you from large corrections later)

If you don’t have an AoA indicator- calculate your actual approach speed for every flight and be honest with yourself on short final.  If you’ve got a loooonnnnggg runway, you may be able to afford to float in ground effect, or above it, until your speed is under control.  If not, go around early and try again, but this time be disciplined and fly the proper speeds.

its easy to get complacent- but complacency kills when it comes to aviation (or costs you lots of money).

[jetdriven]

2 hours ago, chrisk said:

I have a 231 and with two folks up front and an empty plane, it is near forward CG.  To get proper final speed with full flaps, it requires almost full trim up.  And it is certainly interesting when going around, requiring some force to push the nose down.  I don't think trimming the flare would make much of a difference.  That said I don't trim in the flare, mostly because it seems less precise than using the yoke. 

Full up trim to maintain 1.2 Vso and landing from that is great. But getting 10 feet above the runway and mashing the trim button until hits the up stop and brings the nose up for you that is something else, and sure as heck isn’t piloting. 

[Mooneymite]

5 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

.... getting 10 feet above the runway and mashing the trim button until hits the up stop and brings the nose up for you that is something else, and sure as heck isn’t piloting. 

I think that may be called a "technique".  I have seen some pilots in the "professional"/ commercial world use this technique (successfully, so far).  I do not subscribe to it.  It may be a bad-technique, but it is certainly not an un-heard of technique.

[Steve W]

10 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Come fly formation with the Mooney Caravan and learn how to make the smoothest landings ever... no flaps and 90 knots to the numbers.

Long (6000 ft min) runways required 

I can say that's one kind of flying I have no desire to ever do. When I go to Oshkosh I'm gonna be the guy who arrives a day or 2 or more early to miss all the traffic.

[MIm20c]

14 minutes ago, Steve W said:

I can say that's one kind of flying I have no desire to ever do. When I go to Oshkosh I'm gonna be the guy who arrives a day or 2 or more early to miss all the traffic.

I hit Ripon at 7:15 am on Thursday and had the sky to myself.  

[Piloto]

The Mooney movable stabilator is a bigger surface than the elevator thus has more power to bring the nose up at low speed than the elevator. Using the trim keeps the joke from rubbing on my belly during flare. I found that on Mooneys with the Missile or Rocket conversion it helps to trim up on the flare.

José

[Longingforhome]

15 hours ago, Steve W said:

" find a tail wheel and a CFI and go work on the basics"

LebanAir at S30 is the closest i have found for tail wheel training, Aeronca Champ.

I saw N925JH this morning on my way past. If you need a hand with anything send me a message.

[MyNameIsNobody]

15 hours ago, Piloto said:

Porpoising can happens any time you are landing a little bit too fast. It is more common on low wing planes. As the wing comes close to the ground with full flaps it goes into ground effect shifting the center of lift back causing the nose to drop. Purpoising is more prone to happen in gusty and crosswind conditions. To avoid it I trim all the way back with the trim switch on the yoke as I am flaring and retract the flaps just before touch down.

José

I wish you would stop posting this technique.

[MyNameIsNobody]

Isn’t somebody doing great being a rental king in California?  Certainly the pittance of income and hassle of a “video” (mailing and collecting) vs. just putting it out on You Tube to help many and drum up customers makes more sense?

[Andy95W]

3 hours ago, Piloto said:

The Mooney movable stabilator is a bigger surface than the elevator thus has more power to bring the nose up at low speed than the elevator. Using the trim keeps the joke from rubbing on my belly during flare. I found that on Mooneys with the Missile or Rocket conversion it helps to trim up on the flare.

José

Everyone understands why you trim in the flare.  

What folks are saying is that it's a bad technique that could be dangerous if you had to do an actual go-around.

[mike_elliott]

3 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Anyway, to this day watching all of the arrivals in a lawnchair while monitoring ATC from the side of 09/27 is my absolute favorite part of the show.  

I have done that five or six times, and this presents some of the scariest things you will ever see.