kortopates

Porpoising leads to gear collapse accident

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http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2018/02/mooney-m20j-201-n925jh-incident.html 

One of three Mooney landing incidents this past week, including a gear up landing and off field landing, but this one made it into the preliminary accident reports.

No reported injuries thankfully. Like many of these, this Mooney was registered less than 1 year ago so lack of experience in type and perhaps lacks of transition training may have played a role.

But Mooney's are not unique to porpoising incidents, just probably the most frequent airframe to see them. But here is a very brief write-up including a short video of a piper porpoising on landing to a nose gear failure. http://www.boldmethod.com/blog/2014/01/the-danger-of-porpoise-landings/   You'll often hear Mooney pilots say it was the third bounce that led to the prop strike, but I think I counted many more bounces in the short video before it was over.

Be careful out there!

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12 hours ago, kortopates said:

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2018/02/mooney-m20j-201-n925jh-incident.html 

One of three Mooney landing incidents this past week, including a gear up landing and off field landing, but this one made it into the preliminary accident reports.

No reported injuries thankfully. Like many of these, this Mooney was registered less than 1 year ago so lack of experience in type and perhaps lacks of transition training may have played a role.

But Mooney's are not unique to porpoising incidents, just probably the most frequent airframe to see them. But here is a very brief write-up including a short video of a piper porpoising on landing to a nose gear failure. http://www.boldmethod.com/blog/2014/01/the-danger-of-porpoise-landings/   You'll often hear Mooney pilots say it was the third bounce that led to the prop strike, but I think I counted many more bounces in the short video before it was over.

Be careful out there!

What was that Piper pilot thinking!!!!  That is one of the poorest examples of piloting I have ever seen--but it probably was to be expected given the approach.  First off, he came in waaaay, waaay too fast.  Then he let the airplane fly him instead of the other way around.  And Pipers even have oleo struts on the gear to make it even easier to damp the touchdown force.  After the first bounce, all this pilot had to do to have a good day was either go around, or if the runway was long enough, hold the nose up until speed had bled off enough to touch down again.  If the nose is held up, you can't bounce on it.

Mooney's are more difficult in that they don't have the damping effect of oleo struts, only rubber disks that will CONTRIBUTE to a bounce if touching down too fast and too hard.  Once again I think it is important to actually practice bounced landings with an instructor who knows what they are doing and/or:

http://www.donkaye.com/donkaye.com/Perfect_Your_Landings.html

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2 minutes ago, donkaye said:

What was that Piper pilot thinking!!!!  That is one of the poorest examples of piloting I have ever seen--but it probably was to be expected given the approach.  First off, he came in waaaay, waaay too fast.  Then he let the airplane fly him instead of the other way around.  And Pipers even have oleo struts on the gear to make it even easier to damp the touchdown force.  After the first bounce, all this pilot had to do to have a good day was either go around, or if the runway was long enough, hold the nose up until speed had bled off enough to touch down again.  If the nose it held up, you can't bounce on it.

Mooney are more difficult in that they don't have the damping effect of oleo struts, only rubber disks that will CONTRIBUTE to a bounce if touching down too fast and too hard.  Once again I think it it important to actually practice bounced landings with an instructor who knows what they are doing and/or:

http://www.donkaye.com/donkaye.com/Perfect_Your_Landings.html

Going to cost you $25.00 for me to click that link..

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I won't comment on the incident due to the investigation, but I'm fine, the plane is currently not, talking to shops now. If anyone has any suggestions in Oregon of who I should talk to about potential repairs please let me know so I can add them to my list.

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8 minutes ago, Steve W said:

I won't comment on the incident due to the investigation, but I'm fine, the plane is currently not, talking to shops now. If anyone has any suggestions in Oregon of who I should talk to about potential repairs please let me know so I can add them to my list.

Glad your fine and hope you can get back into the cockpit asap.

Check with with Greg at Advanced Aircraft Troutdale, OR. They are an MSC that people speak highly of. Also I know LASAR has picked up and ferried many gear up Mooney's for repair as well. So they are worth talking to as well. 

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5 minutes ago, Steve W said:

I won't comment on the incident due to the investigation, but I'm fine, the plane is currently not, talking to shops now. If anyone has any suggestions in Oregon of who I should talk to about potential repairs please let me know so I can add them to my list.

I'm in the Willamette Valley.  I use FliteWing in Salem for most repair stuff, but I have to admit, I don't know if they do major repairs.  Mike Ward used to own Mooney's and is reasonably well-versed in them.  He also has very reasonable rates.  The nearest Mooney Service Center is Advanced Aircraft up in Troutdale.  They did my first annual, and I'm sure they would do major repairs, but they are definitely much pricier

I can't tell if you're AOG in Newport (I'm assuming so), so you'd have to factor in the cost of transporting the plane by ground.  I don't know how much that would be, but that might dictate using the FBO down there.

Glad you're okay!

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http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2018/02/mooney-m20j-201-n925jh-incident.html 
One of three Mooney landing incidents this past week, including a gear up landing and off field landing, but this one made it into the preliminary accident reports.
No reported injuries thankfully. Like many of these, this Mooney was registered less than 1 year ago so lack of experience in type and perhaps lacks of transition training may have played a role.
But Mooney's are not unique to porpoising incidents, just probably the most frequent airframe to see them. But here is a very brief write-up including a short video of a piper porpoising on landing to a nose gear failure. http://www.boldmethod.com/blog/2014/01/the-danger-of-porpoise-landings/   You'll often hear Mooney pilots say it was the third bounce that led to the prop strike, but I think I counted many more bounces in the short video before it was over.
Be careful out there!


I have a video I recorded of a not to be named MooneySpace owner that survived a 4 bounce non prop contact porpoise in their Mooney. It can be done but depends if the porpoise is deepening or not.


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1 hour ago, donkaye said:

What was that Piper pilot thinking!!!!  That is one of the poorest examples of piloting I have ever seen--but it probably was to be expected given the approach.  First off, he came in waaaay, waaay too fast.  Then he let the airplane fly him instead of the other way around.  And Pipers even have oleo struts on the gear to make it even easier to damp the touchdown force.  After the first bounce, all this pilot had to do to have a good day was either go around, or if the runway was long enough, hold the nose up until speed had bled off enough to touch down again.  If the nose it held up, you can't bounce on it.

 

http://www.donkaye.com/donkaye.com/Perfect_Your_Landings.html

what are you complaining about?  The piper pilot only used half the runway.  :D

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I can't tell if you're AOG in Newport (I'm assuming so), so you'd have to factor in the cost of transporting the plane by ground.  I don't know how much that would be, but that might dictate using the FBO down there.
Glad you're okay!

Nothing unusual about bolting a new prop on, if the crank runout is okay, and ferrying it out after making any temporary gear repairs if necessary. Often the gear just folds with minimal damage and can be flown locked down.

But since these repairs typically add up to over $40K+, the first consideration will be if the insured hull value is enough to avoid totalling it. Usually J's are.


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39 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 


I have a video I recorded of a not to be named MooneySpace owner that survived a 4 bounce non prop contact porpoise in their Mooney. It can be done but depends if the porpoise is deepening or not.


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I had good transition training from a Mooney owner/instructor and had absolutely no problems for about 2 years and 150 hours.  Then, all of a sudden it almost happened.  I went up and did a little sight seeing and scrape the rust off the cylinders on my own, and on return porposed down the runway at least 3 times but I knew I had to get out of there so I went around. The second attempt I bounced once very small, but gave it a very short burst of power and let it settle with the nose up until the wing quit flying.  I taxied back to the hangar and called the instructor and scheduled some time with him for slow flight and landings.  Since then I have had absolutely no problems either on that instruction flight, or since then in 8 more years.  

If anyone is having any problems at all with landing, even out of the blue like my issue, get some help.

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I must say (knock on wood) that I've never ever done that, not even a little bit.

All I can think is they think they are going too fast and have to get the wheels on the ground so they can use the brakes to slow themselves down. Why else would you keep pushing the nose down. It must be someone who thinks to much about driving a car and not as much about flying a plane. You can't force a plane to land, it has to want to land. Except for transport aircraft.

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20 minutes ago, Bartman said:

I had good transition training from a Mooney owner/instructor and had absolutely no problems for about 2 years and 150 hours.  Then, all of a sudden it almost happened.  I went up and did a little sight seeing and scrape the rust off the cylinders on my own, and on return porposed down the runway at least 3 times but I knew I had to get out of there so I went around. The second attempt I bounced once very small, but gave it a very short burst of power and let it settle with the nose up until the wing quit flying.  I taxied back to the hangar and called the instructor and scheduled some time with him for slow flight and landings.  Since then I have had absolutely no problems either on that instruction flight, or since then in 8 more years.  

If anyone is having any problems at all with landing, even out of the blue like my issue, get some help.

I have always had a healthy respect for landing my Mooney. Every so often, she will have a little surprise for me. It just takes the right combination of factors for the surprise.

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12 minutes ago, Marauder said:

I have always had a healthy respect for landing my Mooney. Every so often, she will have a little surprise for me. It just takes the right combination of factors for the surprise.

That combination of factors can be as simple as a sleepless night, long bumpy flight or challenging IFR or landing in unfamiliar runway with terrain issues...comes in hot ,bounces,wheel barrows and kinda stops piloting and is simply along for the ride.The piper pilot totally lost his ability to pilot,regardless

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I must say (knock on wood) that I've never ever done that, not even a little bit.
All I can think is they think they are going too fast and have to get the wheels on the ground so they can use the brakes to slow themselves down. Why else would you keep pushing the nose down. It must be someone who thinks to much about driving a car and not as much about flying a plane. You can't force a plane to land, it has to want to land. Except for transport aircraft.

Actually the big reason why pilots push the nose down is subconsciously in response to the nose pointing up into the sky after an increasing higher bounces off the nose. But of course rather than do that they need to hold the nose back and very possibly add a touch of power if it bounced quite high to soften the next one - as@Bartman just described above. Being right seat, i've saved a number of Mooney's as new Mooney pilots learned this and didn't even realize they were pushing the nose down when they lost sight of the runway with the nose up in the air. This is why as Don says above its so critical to experience porpoising in transition training so as to be prepared for a proper recovery when you may experience it later.


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To land a Mooney well, don't beat your Mooney up.  Get a few hours in a taildragger.  ;)

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16 minutes ago, kortopates said:


Actually the big reason why pilots push the nose down is subconsciously in response to the nose pointing up into the sky after an increasing higher bounces off the nose. But of course rather than do that they need to hold the nose back and very possibly add a touch of power if it bounced quite high to soften the next one - as@Bartman just described above. Being right seat, i've saved a number of Mooney's as new Mooney pilots learned this and didn't even realize they were pushing the nose down when they lost sight of the runway with the nose up in the air. This is why as Don says above its so critical to experience porpoising in transition training so as to be prepared for a proper recovery when you may experience it later.


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Thanks for the insight. The one thing I've never been in aviation is a flight instructor, so I have little experience with what other people do wrong or why they do it. I guess I should get that some time.

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I’ve gotten in the habit of landing with only half flaps. To me it feels much more firm and easier to control. And I’m set up better for a go around incase I need it.

Steve sorry to hear about the insistent. I hope it hasn’t got you down to much. I use Advanced and Dash Air in Troutdale. Both great shops. My annual is set up for March 5th at Advanced. If you need a ride to or back from there let me know. c4779ad8f3e6812635ff918950e0be3d.jpg38f8eb59fb47eb79637d68b839085c1a.jpg


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Thanks for the insight. The one thing I've never been in aviation is a flight instructor, so I have little experience with what other people do wrong or why they do it. I guess I should get that some time.

You should since being an A&P as well will give you a major plus. Not only from knowing the systems to a higher level, but also ensuring clients aren't developing bad habits in response to something that is not right about their aircraft - since you'll be better equipped to recognize equipment issues right away. Sure don't mean to imply CFI's without the A&P can't do that, just that A&P CFI are well equipped to do it. Go for it.


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I find the 18/g28 at a 45 to 50 degree crosswind is where I’m still learning and bring in too much speed. I’ve had a few 1-2 foot bounces which is always a humbling experience especially when you have an audience. 

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2 hours ago, rbridges said:

what are you complaining about?  The piper pilot only used half the runway.  :D

The Piper pilot has now joined that rare and elite group of pilots who don’t know what speed control is all about.  That same group usually haven’t  heard of trim either.

Clarence

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Actually the big reason why pilots push the nose down is subconsciously in response to the nose pointing up into the sky after an increasing higher bounces off the nose. But of course rather than do that they need to hold the nose back and very possibly add a touch of power if it bounced quite high to soften the next one - as[mention=8279]Bartman[/mention] just described above. Being right seat, i've saved a number of Mooney's as new Mooney pilots learned this and didn't even realize they were pushing the nose down when they lost sight of the runway with the nose up in the air. This is why as Don says above its so critical to experience porpoising in transition training so as to be prepared for a proper recovery when you may experience it later.


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The response the pilot has from seeing the nose pointed in the air is not a subconscious response. It comes from training from the very beginning. The normal training tells them in that environment they are going to stall. That low to the ground if you stall you die is the normal CFI’s comment to me. They have the stall warning going off and they respond with their training of what to do in a stall situation.The training to keep you from stalling is push the nose over. When there is a situation we are not trained for, our natural reactions take over. And pulling the nose back when we start looking right down on the runway is one of them. It’s the worst of both worlds.

Most pilots in that situation don’t realize how far they just pulled back on the yoke. They are not trained for that reaction and they just jerk it back. And then their training takes over once they see the sky and shove the nose back down. Pulling the yoke way back isn’t going to just save the situation. It takes positioning the yoke just aft and holding it there. Keeping the plane almost in ground effect to let it stop its self from flying.

There are many factors that play into an incident. Not just a low time pilot. Don’t statists show 500 hour pilots crash more than 100 hour pilots?


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1 hour ago, thinwing said:

That combination of factors can be as simple as a sleepless night, long bumpy flight or challenging IFR or landing in unfamiliar runway with terrain issues...comes in hot ,bounces,wheel barrows and kinda stops piloting and is simply along for the ride.The piper pilot totally lost his ability to pilot,regardless

That's almost what happened to me. My first long trip, almost 400 nm across the Appalachians at Thanksgiving, visiting the inlaws. I had finished my insurance dual at Labor Day, and hit 100 hours total time at the end of September. Going out was fine, but we were a little heavy. Came back lighter, afternoon departure, arrived after dark to hear the nearby ATIS broadcast say something about a stadium TFR. I didn't follow the local team, had no idea tney had a home game Saturday, much less a  night game.

So Tower vectored me across my home field, exactly 4nm from theirs, for a nice midfield crossover. I turned that into upwind and flew around, happy to be home and miss the TFR that I didnt know about. Leveled off on final to clear the trees, chopped power to descend to the runway just like always (I had trained for my PPL there, too), and relaxed because I was home. I had done it, I was a real pilot and an airplane owner! Woo-hoo!!

The first bounce was a surprise, we both sat up and i was looking around alertly. (Be alert, America needs more lerts!  :lol:) The second bounce completely unsettled me, and I'd heard that the third bounce gets the prop, so I pushed the throttle in and went around, praying silently to miss the trees at the end that I couldn't see with the nose raised. (Yay! Good call, pilot!) (The runway is 3001' long, with tall trees at both ends.) All the way around the pattern I kept repeating to myself, "figure it out later. Just land the plane." Did everything just like always again, smooth landing, taxi to the hangar, unload, push inside and drive home.

A couple days later, my best guess was that in my joy to have completed this trip (3 hours flying each way vs. 9-10 hours driving), and my happiness to be home with vectors away from the stadium TFR, I just relaxed and quit flying the plane, nearly ending my flying career right at its beginning. 

If it's not right, go around! Anything is better than wiping out . . . . . The ten years since then have not been a problem with bouncing or porpoising, and I probably do less than one ga around per year (practice and flight reviews excepted!).

Edited by Hank

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Knock on wood, but I've never had any problems landing a Mooney. They seem pretty easy to me... but full disclosure, I bought the @donkaye landing video and watched it probably 20 times while my first Mooney was going through it's pre-buy. So starting with the very first landing I was doing my best to land the Don Kaye way.

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2 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Knock on wood, but I've never had any problems landing a Mooney. They seem pretty easy to me... but full disclosure, I bought the @donkaye landing video and watched it probably 20 times while my first Mooney was going through it's pre-buy. So starting with the very first landing I was doing my best to land the Don Kaye way.

The $25.00 CD from Don was the best deal ever.   I am based in an airport that is less than 2400 feet long and needed all the landing help I could get.   

By now I have 300 hours in my Eagle but watch the landings in Don's  CD once in a while.

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