Cheapest/easiest ADS-B option for old-style steam gage M20R (2000)

[THill182]

I know that this topic has been discussed in various places, but I have been trying to find a concise and updated summary of what my options are (in prep for an annual and downtime when installing the ADS-B option might be convenient).

Mine is a traditional steam-gauge panel in a M20R, with Garmin WAAS enabled radios/GPS. I am very rarely flying above FL180 but when I do I have to to get over some weather -- so I would like to keep the option.

What are the easiest (least downtime) and cheapest options to achieve ADS-B compliance given current or likely very-soon-to-be-available equipment? Does someone have a concise summary from recent research/work?

[Mooneymite]

If they get approval for certified aircraft as planned first quarter 2018, this will be the cheapest since there is virtually no install cost:

https://www.uavionix.com/products/skybeacon/

I can equip my experimental with it now and will probably do my Mooney with it too if it works "as advertised".

[ELT]

I installed a Stratus ES transponder for compliance with the Mandate.  I added the hard wired Stratus 2 for weather and traffic in.   All well under 4K installed.  The in"" added about 1K.   The ES transponder used the WAAS signal from my G430W.   No external antennae to install.

[gsengle]

I have an older ovation as well. I wouldn’t cheap out and put in a transponder that limits your ceiling to 18000, as I think this would limit your resale value. That means a 1090es solution. These are generally more expensive.

Do you have active traffic? If so I’d bite the bullet and put in the Lynx 9000+. Ditch the old sky watch box (its now built into the Lynx and see if you can get trade in value on the old box as a service spare). I did this and it gained me useful load, a new warrantee, higher power active traffic transmitter and an integrated solution at no extra cost for the “+”.

The Lynx isnt cheap, but it does have its own gps which simplifies installation. It’s commensurate with the value of an Ovation. And having all the ADSB-in on a screen in the stack is really nice.

Don’t go uat only.... imho

Greg


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[Heloman]

I determined the answer to this question is a Garmin GDL-82, but they haven't shipped as they're supposed to so now I'm left waiting and hoping. The install for the GDL-82, while not as simple as the sky beacon isn't too big a deal. Total with install less then 3k. The Sky Beacon will be an awesome option if it gets certified.


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[mooniac15u]

2 hours ago, THill182 said:

I know that this topic has been discussed in various places, but I have been trying to find a concise and updated summary of what my options are (in prep for an annual and downtime when installing the ADS-B option might be convenient).

Mine is a traditional steam-gauge panel in a M20R, with Garmin WAAS enabled radios/GPS. I am very rarely flying above FL180 but when I do I have to to get over some weather -- so I would like to keep the option.

What are the easiest (least downtime) and cheapest options to achieve ADS-B compliance given current or likely very-soon-to-be-available equipment? Does someone have a concise summary from recent research/work?

Are you looking just for ADS-B out for compliance or are you also looking to include ADS-B in?

[mike_elliott]

1 hour ago, gsengle said:

I have an older ovation as well. I wouldn’t cheap out and put in a transponder that limits your ceiling to 18000, as I think this would limit your resale value. That means a 1090es solution. These are generally more expensive.

Do you have active traffic? If so I’d bite the bullet and put in the Lynx 9000+. Ditch the old sky watch box (its now built into the Lynx and see if you can get trade in value on the old box as a service spare). I did this and it gained me useful load, a new warrantee, higher power active traffic transmitter and an integrated solution at no extra cost for the “+”.

The Lynx isnt cheap, but it does have its own gps which simplifies installation. It’s commensurate with the value of an Ovation. And having all the ADSB-in on a screen in the stack is really nice.

Don’t go uat only.... imho

Greg


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+1 on the Lynx. Not the cheapest, but the best and when you consider what you get, price per feature and capability is cheap.

[Bob - S50]

Cheapest implies OUT only.

The GDL82 won't do it because it is 978 and you can't go above 17,999'.

Seems to me the cheapest easiest 1090 OUT would be either:

Avidyne APX340 - $2589

King KT74 - $2475

Trig TT31 - $2229

Garmin GTX 335 - $2589

Stratus ES - $2495

The first 3 are slide in replacements for the KT76 transponder.  All they need is a GPS position wire run from your navigator so installation cost should be somewhat cheaper.  Trig makes the King but the King buttons look like they would make code entry easier than the Trig.

For a little more: Garmin GTX345 - $4389 you'll get a panel mount ADS-B IN solution as well.  We REALLY like seeing traffic and being able to get the weather and NOTAMS while we are airborne.  For me the extra $2000 is worth it!  And IN reception will be better with a panel mount than a portable because the antenna is on the bottom of the plane so the signal is never blocked by the airframe.

[mooniac15u]

6 minutes ago, Bob - S50 said:

Cheapest implies OUT only.

The GDL82 won't do it because it is 978 and you can't go above 17,999'.

Seems to me the cheapest easiest 1090 OUT would be either:

Avidyne APX340 - $2589

King KT74 - $2475

Trig TT31 - $2229

Garmin GTX 335 - $2589

Stratus ES - $2495

The first 3 are slide in replacements for the KT76 transponder.  All they need is a GPS position wire run from your navigator so installation cost should be somewhat cheaper.  Trig makes the King but the King buttons look like they would make code entry easier than the Trig.

For a little more: Garmin GTX345 - $4389 you'll get a panel mount ADS-B IN solution as well.  We REALLY like seeing traffic and being able to get the weather and NOTAMS while we are airborne.  For me the extra $2000 is worth it!  And IN reception will be better with a panel mount than a portable because the antenna is on the bottom of the plane so the signal is never blocked by the airframe.

I think that GTX-335 price is for experimental aircraft.  It seems like it is consistently priced at $2995 for installation in certified aircraft.  Garmin does have a deal right now where you can get the GTX-335 with internal GPS for the same price.

[Bob - S50]

2 minutes ago, mooniac15u said:

I think that GTX-335 price is for experimental aircraft.  It seems like it is consistently priced at $2995 for installation in certified aircraft.  Garmin does have a deal right now where you can get the GTX-335 with internal GPS for the same price.

I stand corrected.  That was for experimental.

[tigers2007]

+1 on the SkyBeacon being the “easiest and cheapest”. Hell it will save you on the cost of a $130 LED nav light bulb too. I strongly suggest the NGT-9000 Lynx though. Here are some real-word prices for “compliance”:




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[THill182]

Thanks for all the suggestions; I will research them all.

I should have said that I have XM weather in my plane (actually twice; one handheld Garmin 695; the other displayed on G5/430; two independent systems just-in-case.). I also have active Skywatch  displaying traffic on the G530 -- which I assume will continue to work as is, right? I.e., the standard old transponder signals are still being sent out, or not? If so, then I don't see too much value in another traffic system other than the-more-and-redundant-info-the-better. Definitely go over 18K ft occasionally. But not sure if the "In-option" adds value.

[mooniac15u]

Just now, THill182 said:

Thanks for all the suggestions; I will research them all.

I should have said that I have XM weather in my plane (actually twice; one handheld Garmin 695; the other displayed on G5/430; two independent systems just-in-case.). I also have active Skywatch  displaying traffic on the G530 -- which I assume will continue to work as is, right? I.e., the standard old transponder signals are still being sent out, or not? If so, then I don't see too much value in another traffic system other than the-more-and-redundant-info-the-better. Definitely go over 18K ft occasionally. But not sure if the "In-option" adds value.

I have been happy with the traffic and weather on my iPad from my Stratux so I went with the GTX-335 (with internal GPS).

[MIm20c]

6 minutes ago, THill182 said:

Thanks for all the suggestions; I will research them all.

I should have said that I have XM weather in my plane (actually twice; one handheld Garmin 695; the other displayed on G5/430; two independent systems just-in-case.). I also have active Skywatch  displaying traffic on the G530 -- which I assume will continue to work as is, right? I.e., the standard old transponder signals are still being sent out, or not? If so, then I don't see too much value in another traffic system other than the-more-and-redundant-info-the-better. Definitely go over 18K ft occasionally. But not sure if the "In-option" adds value.

You will want at least a 330es, 335, 345, etc on a nice plane like the R. The 330es can be had used for under 2k.  The skywatch will still work but will be ideal with the 345 that combines the adsb traffic with the active traffic. 

[RobertGary1]

If the no-install $1500 SkyBeacon does get final approval that does change the game. Just swap a nav light with it, built in WAAS etc.

https://www.uavionix.com/products/skybeacon/

 

-Robert

[N6758N]

18 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

If the no-install $1500 SkyBeacon does get final approval that does change the game. Just swap a nav light with it, built in WAAS etc.

https://www.uavionix.com/products/skybeacon/

 

-Robert

Can't go above 18k with that solution though.

[StevenL757]

1 hour ago, THill182 said:

Thanks for all the suggestions; I will research them all.

I should have said that I have XM weather in my plane (actually twice; one handheld Garmin 695; the other displayed on G5/430; two independent systems just-in-case.). I also have active Skywatch  displaying traffic on the G530 -- which I assume will continue to work as is, right? I.e., the standard old transponder signals are still being sent out, or not? If so, then I don't see too much value in another traffic system other than the-more-and-redundant-info-the-better. Definitely go over 18K ft occasionally. But not sure if the "In-option" adds value.

So, as Mike indicated (and as you already have a Skywatch antenna mounded), I'd opt for the slightly-more expensive NGT-9000+ from L-3.  With it, you'll have...

* Mode-S

* "In" and "Out" ADS/B capability

* The ability to pull up NOTAMs and Wx

* Its own WAAS GPS position source

* Active Traffic/TAS/TCAS

The "+" version of the NGT (which I have) has its own built-in Skywatch computer that will scan for traffic up to 35 miles out.  It allows you to get rid of that 15+ pound Skywatch computer in the avionics bay which only scans out to 11 miles.  The NGT is probably the most-comprehensive unit you'll find on the market today that fits into your existing KT-76A/C rack space.  One of the best upgrades I've ever done to my Ovation, honestly.

Don't be penny-wise and pound-foolish with this decision.  Airlines, corporate operators, et al use TCAS/Active traffic for a reason.  Although TIS traffic is useful and is becoming more robust, it will never be as effective as TAS/TCAS.  Remember, TIS is a service, and subject to holes in coverage.  TAS/TCAS picks up anything with a Mode-A transponder or better.

Good luck with the decision.

Steve

[StevenL757]

2 hours ago, THill182 said:

I also have active Skywatch  displaying traffic on the G530 -- which I assume will continue to work as is, right? I.e., the standard old transponder signals are still being sent out, or not? If so, then I don't see too much value in another traffic system other than the-more-and-redundant-info-the-better. Definitely go over 18K ft occasionally. But not sure if the "In-option" adds value.

Additional edits...to your original question.

Yes, you will still have TAS/TCAS traffic displayed on your 530 as you have now..  My point earlier with the 9000+ is that you can keep the Skywatch antenna, sell the Skywatch computer (15+ pounds), sell the KT76A/C, and replace with a box that fits into that -76 rack space.  Selling them both will help offset the NGT-9000+ cost, allow you to keep the Skywatch signals going into the 530, save 15 pounds useful load, and gives you "In" and "Out" capability.  Installation-wise, this is also a smart, panel space-saving decision that was very economical in terms of labor cost for me.  Your Ovation will be similar.

Steve

[flyboy0681]

5 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

If they get approval for certified aircraft as planned first quarter 2018, this will be the cheapest since there is virtually no install cost:

https://www.uavionix.com/products/skybeacon/

I can equip my experimental with it now and will probably do my Mooney with it too if it works "as advertised".

That little device is really thinking outside of the box. What a great approach.

[Yetti]

Looking at the Trig T22 for ADSB out and Trig TN70 as a position source.  Since they are remote mount, should be a snap to install.   Just add a breaker panel off the Master solenoid.  Get a NC Solenoid wired to the Com master.

This should be keeping me in line for a DYnon skyview

Asking Cole at Avionics Source what kind of price he can quote.  

[THill182]

1 hour ago, StevenL757 said:

So, as Mike indicated (and as you already have a Skywatch antenna mounded), I'd opt for the slightly-more expensive NGT-9000+ from L-3.  With it, you'll have...

* Mode-S

* "In" and "Out" ADS/B capability

* The ability to pull up NOTAMs and Wx

* Its own WAAS GPS position source

* Active Traffic/TAS/TCAS

The "+" version of the NGT (which I have) has its own built-in Skywatch computer that will scan for traffic up to 35 miles out.  It allows you to get rid of that 15+ pound Skywatch computer in the avionics bay which only scans out to 11 miles.  The NGT is probably the most-comprehensive unit you'll find on the market today that fits into your existing KT-76A/C rack space.  One of the best upgrades I've ever done to my Ovation, honestly.

Don't be penny-wise and pound-foolish with this decision.  Airlines, corporate operators, et al use TCAS/Active traffic for a reason.  Although TIS traffic is useful and is becoming more robust, it will never be as effective as TAS/TCAS.  Remember, TIS is a service, and subject to holes in coverage.  TAS/TCAS picks up anything with a Mode-A transponder or better.

Good luck with the decision.

Steve

That is a compelling option! I looked at the web site and

- It will support Active Traffic/TAS/TCAS, right? (I didn't see that on the web site; I would want an active system that interrogates; I had a passive old-style system in a former plane, and having a system that won't pick up traffic low in the traffic pattern in remote places defeats the main purpose for such systems).

- How does it connect to the Ipad? Can it use Bluetooth? That would be a very attractive option.

 

Also, what's the reliability of the system so far. Does anyone have bad experiences? (I had on an older plane a transponder that was unpredictably intermittent -- nothing is more frustrating than non-reproducible problems in complex avionics)

 

What is the approximate installed cost for this system (with replacement of old skywatch)?

 

[mike_elliott]

L3 makes top drawer stuff. The reliability is fantastic, the quality shames the others. It was the only solution that would display wx.traffic on the Aspen and the GNS and the IPAD and itself. It was the only solution with an active traffic option in addition to the above. It took my avionics guy about a day to install it, including the new tray and antenna. Yes it costs a bit more, but as others have said, one of the best upgrades they have done. It deserves a place at the top of the avionics stack. Oh, and look for features to be added via  a simple unlock (can anyone say FS210, after all, it is a wireless router really)

[gsxrpilot]

Unquestionably the cheapest option here since you already have a WAAS GPS, is to do a 330ES transponder. They can be had on the used market for less than $2000 and the install is often less than $500.  It's quick, cheap and gives you full ADSB compliance for all altitudes.

There are many other options with many more features and options... but all come at a cost. 

This is what I did for my C. I bought a 330ES from @Alan Fox and my avionics shop installed it for $400 while I waited. Easy, cheap, done.

[StevenL757]

8 minutes ago, THill182 said:

That is a compelling option! I looked at the web site and

- It will support Active Traffic/TAS/TCAS, right? (I didn't see that on the web site; I would want an active system that interrogates; I had a passive old-style system in a former plane, and having a system that won't pick up traffic low in the traffic pattern in remote places defeats the main purpose for such systems).

- How does it connect to the Ipad? Can it use Bluetooth? That would be a very attractive option.

Also, what's the reliability of the system so far. Does anyone have bad experiences? (I had on an older plane a transponder that was unpredictably intermittent -- nothing is more frustrating than non-reproducible problems in complex avionics)

What is the approximate installed cost for this system (with replacement of old skywatch)?

So, yes, the 9000+ model provides the Active Traffic unlock option.  There is a small (about the size of a pack of chewing gum) module provided with the 9000+.  Mine is placed conveniently behind the panel, and the iPad connects to it via WiFi - similar to a "hotspot".  Mine has worked very well, although some folks have reported glitches in Foreflight, such as your own ship not being visible on the map, but L-3 and Foreflight have since ironed that out.

Reliability?  I did have 2 instances on two consecutive flights just over a year ago where I received a "TAS/TCAS not available" message on my G500 in-flight, but was quickly identified and resolved with a SW fix by L-3.  Since then, everything has been perfect.

As far as installed cost (I didn't have a Skywatch antenna previously), mine came out to between $8.5 and $9k.  Again, this was done in parallel with a complete gut/redo cockpit job, so some time savings was realized.  With your trade-ins, your costs would be a bit lower, and you have to realize I paid higher "New York" prices.  :-)

Steve

[StevenL757]

12 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Unquestionably the cheapest option here since you already have a WAAS GPS, is to do a 330ES transponder. They can be had on the used market for less than $2000 and the install is often less than $500.  It's quick, cheap and gives you full ADSB compliance for all altitudes.

There are many other options with many more features and options... but all come at a cost. 

This is what I did for my C. I bought a 330ES from @Alan Fox and my avionics shop installed it for $400 while I waited. Easy, cheap, done.

Yeah, I was going to suggest Alan as someone who had GTX-330ES or GTX-33ES (remote) boxes available, and is indeed your cheapest option.  Despite my having the 9000+ installed, I've considered going this route and installing a 330ES as a secondary transponder with a flipover switch if the 9000+ ever gives out.  Agree it's a great option and the cheapest if "bare" compliance is the only goal.

Steve