Off field landing at KSGH

[FlyChickie]

On 12/6/2017 at 7:35 PM, Steelstring said:

Yep. That was my aircraft.  I missed all of the fun, it sound like!  I would have helped you measure.  I  did talk to the airport staff for a while and they mentioned the fence as a formidable problem....

There was a nice Gulfstream sitting on the ramp next to my aircraft when I left.  Was that yours?

Definitely a small world.  Glad you and yours are ok.  Nice work putting her back down in the field.

 

Beautiful bird - I noticed her right away!

[Yetti]

Car dollies and a couple sheets of plywood.  

 

I would probably weld up some off road dollies using these. 

https://www.harborfreight.com/8-inch-pneumatic-swivel-caster-42485.html

One long one for both mains.  and then one for nose wheel.

 

 

[Piloto]

Autopatch you were lucky that you were in a Mooney and not on a twin Aerostar like these one:

MIAMI-DADE COUNTY, Fla. - One person died after a small plane crashed Sunday afternoon in Southwest Miami-Dade County, Miami-Dade police said.

The Federal Aviation Administration said in a statement a Piper PA 60 aircraft crashed at 2:50 p.m. about a mile and a half west of Miami Executive Airport.

The FAA said the pilot had just taken off and was returning to the airport after declaring an emergency when the plane crashed. 

https://www.local10.com/news/florida/miami-dade/small-plane-crashes-in-southwest-miami-dade-county

The plane crashed on an open field just like N201P.

José

[gsxrpilot]

20 minutes ago, Piloto said:

Autopatch you were lucky that you were in a Mooney and not on a twin Aerostar like these one:

MIAMI-DADE COUNTY, Fla. - One person died after a small plane crashed Sunday afternoon in Southwest Miami-Dade County, Miami-Dade police said.

The Federal Aviation Administration said in a statement a Piper PA 60 aircraft crashed at 2:50 p.m. about a mile and a half west of Miami Executive Airport.

The FAA said the pilot had just taken off and was returning to the airport after declaring an emergency when the plane crashed. 

https://www.local10.com/news/florida/miami-dade/small-plane-crashes-in-southwest-miami-dade-county

The plane crashed on an open field just like N201P.

José

I think I'd put that on the pilot and less the airplane. A competent pilot should be able to put any of these aircraft down in an open field without killing people.

[mike_elliott]

48 minutes ago, Piloto said:

Autopatch you were lucky that you were in a Mooney and not on a twin Aerostar like these one:

MIAMI-DADE COUNTY, Fla. - One person died after a small plane crashed Sunday afternoon in Southwest Miami-Dade County, Miami-Dade police said.

The Federal Aviation Administration said in a statement a Piper PA 60 aircraft crashed at 2:50 p.m. about a mile and a half west of Miami Executive Airport.

The FAA said the pilot had just taken off and was returning to the airport after declaring an emergency when the plane crashed. 

https://www.local10.com/news/florida/miami-dade/small-plane-crashes-in-southwest-miami-dade-county

The plane crashed on an open field just like N201P.

José

This was a crash, Cris was an off field landing, under control, albeit sans power. This was a twin, and too early to speculate the cause.  (anytime is too early to speculate the cause, actually)

[autopatch]

Autopatch you were lucky that you were in a Mooney and not on a twin Aerostar.

The plane crashed on an open field just like N201P.

José

José -

I'm grateful that I had the benefit of exceptional training even if I was not aware enough at the time to recognize it for what it was.

Also, in my case, there was no crash. I executed a power off landing on an unimproved surface. Nothing was bent and nobody was injured. Many people have been less fortunate than FlyChicke and I, and we acknowledge that.

I'm not in a position to speculate or comment on the circumstances of others.

[Piloto]

No matter how good of a pilot you are you are limited by the plane you are flying. On a single you are trained to recover on power on stalls but on a twin you don't do single engine max power stalls recovery training. Some pilots claim that it was pilot fault on an accident but the reality is that in many instances the cause is due to design limitations in the aircraft or maintenance.

José

[mike_elliott]

9 hours ago, Piloto said:

No matter how good of a pilot you are you are limited by the plane you are flying. On a single you are trained to recover on power on stalls but on a twin you don't do single engine max power stalls recovery training. Some pilots claim that it was pilot fault on an accident but the reality is that in many instances the cause is due to design limitations in the aircraft or maintenance.

José

Sounds like you are saying just get a cirrus, cause it has a chute, Jose. One should be able to fly the plane they are in within its design limitations and execute emergency actions in that plane. One should be careful about blaming the plane's design or limitations if or when they are exceeded by a pilot or when there is a mechanical cause or failure. Speculating about what happened here and planting seeds of the planes design as cause is fake news, dont you think?

[autopatch]

On 12/11/2017 at 8:31 AM, mike_elliott said:

One should be able to fly the plane they are in within its design limitations and execute emergency actions in that plane. 

I agree with you, Mike.

In fact, on reflection, this exchange causes me to recall the model specific training program (and the subsequent positive results) designed for the Mitsubishi MU-2B.

We have the MAPA Safety Foundation which was started in 1990 to address type specific subjects. After a cluster of accidents in 2012, Cirrus wasn't satisfied with the way that pilots were operating their planes, and they designed the Cirrus Approach program in 2016.

A friend of mine recently had the opportunity to fly the replica of the Spirit of St Louis this past July and reported that he found the plane to be "unstable in all three axis."

We're also getting very close to the lively discussions around the changes introduced during the PTS to ACS redesign: specifically around stalls, stall recovery and stall warnings.

Those things having come to mind, it also generally occurs to me that each of them deserves to be exhaustively explored in their own dedicated threads, and to not suffer the indignity of getting lost and orphaned in this one.

[Andy95W]

10 hours ago, Piloto said:

On a single you are trained to recover on power on stalls but on a twin you don't do single engine max power stalls recovery training. 

José

Of course you don’t do single engine max power stalls in a twin. The airplane will reach Vmc before that, which is based on power available from the operating engine and the lack of effectiveness of the rudder, due to low airspeed, to maintain directional control. 

I’m really not sure what your point was, José, but your lack of understanding of multi-engine aircraft was apparent. 

[Browncbr1]

Yea, you can't do single engine power on stalls in a multi.. You reach VMC and have to pull all the throttle back and nose over..   If you stall in single engine config with full power, then you're already upside down.  You can lower Vmc if you're heavy and banked steeply into the operating engine...   I don't think Vmc can ever actually be as low as Vs though.

[Piloto]

40 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

Of course you don’t do single engine max power stalls in a twin. The airplane will reach Vmc before that, which is based on power available from the operating engine and the lack of effectiveness of the rudder, due to low airspeed, to maintain directional control. 

I’m really not sure what your point was, José, but your lack of understanding of multi-engine aircraft was apparent. 

The point is to show that there are limitations on an aircraft of what a pilot can do to avoid a disaster. We try to do our best on the design but have to accept the machine limitations. There is a big difference on engine out recovery between a fuselage mounted engines vs wing mounted engines.  BTW I am multi-engine/IFR rated.

José

[Yetti]

@autopatch are you just going to leave us hanging for the final solution?

[autopatch]

 

10 hours ago, Yetti said:

@autopatch are you just going to leave us hanging for the final solution?

I was trying to come up with a Sherlock Holmes riff on "final solution" but it's too early and I haven't had enough coffee.

The planning paid off and we got the aircraft back into the hangar yesterday smoothly, except that while walking backwards I fell into one of the post holes. Apparently nobody took a picture of that.  Better me than the main gear, so I was happy to have found the hole first.

Even though the posts were advertised to be 10' apart, we only obtained 31' of the needed 36'. With six guys we were able to jockey it through, and I'm glad we had 31' instead of trying to do this on a cold day in 23'. It was very much worth it taking the fence down.

I have a call into the on-field A&P and left him a voicemail, so that's the next step.

[jetdriven]

The front corner of your lower gear door appears bent inwards. I’d straighten that and check the other one too, maybe do a retract check on jacks to check the fit. 

[autopatch]

2 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

The front corner of your lower gear door appears bent inwards. I’d straighten that and check the other one too, maybe do a retract check on jacks to check the fit. 

Yes, that's why I specifically featured that picture. I have many other pictures of the fuselage, but this was the most notable external damage. We haven't had a chance to assess the internal damage (if any) yet, or to determine the root cause. That will happen over the coming two weeks depending on people's vacation schedules. I don't expect it to be quick.

Trust me, it is all going to get examined within an 1/8" of it's life.

This is the other gear door. Not bent, but probably compressed.

[steingar]

Glad the aircraft is back in its hangar.  Hope you get flying soon.

[Browncbr1]

glad to see it back in the hangar so you can begin to figure out what happened!

[BillBarton]

How's the airplane coming Chris?

[autopatch]

6 minutes ago, BillBarton said:

How's the airplane coming Chris?

Talked to an on-field A&P today, discussed what might be the causes. We're going to start with pulling the fuel screen and checking for debris. The JPI data showed the engine was at idle as I suspected. FF went from 16 GPH to 3 GPH. Pulled the cowlings off and nothing looked out of the ordinary or suspicious at first glance. I have the Lycoming Troubleshooting guide courtesy of another member here and we are going to go through it step by step.

Just waiting for vacation to start so I can devote more time to this process. The day job requires most of my attention (rightly so.)

 

[BillBarton]

What a great thing it is to have that data!

Mine is too old, I didn't even think about having data to download.

Well good luck my friend and if you need another set of hands out there let me know. I'm going downrange right after Christmas, be back about first of the year. Can't wait to see you back in the pattern.

[autopatch]

8 hours ago, BillBarton said:

What a great thing it is to have that data!

Mine is too old, I didn't even think about having data to download.

Well good luck my friend and if you need another set of hands out there let me know. I'm going downrange right after Christmas, be back about first of the year. Can't wait to see you back in the pattern.

I know most of us have a “next disposable amu list”, and I’d recommend putting put a 730/830 on that list for someone who doesn't have one. My Christmas was supposed to be a FlightStream 210 .....

Problem is training, AvGas and Mx keeps us away from the list.

 

[Steelstring]

Any news Chris?

[autopatch]

The weather finally got warm enough and schedules worked out for some basic testing. The ice heaving the threshold of the doors gave us a problem getting the hangar doors opened.

Checked the usual suspects, got it started and did some extended ground runs and high speed taxi texts. Ran it for about an hour and nothing obvious showing in the data so far. With the snow falling now, I don’t expect it to be above 30 until late next week. Both tanks are still around half full, still loaded with 100LL, still no water in the sumps. Pumps seem to fine.

So, really, no; no news.

[mike_elliott]

9 hours ago, autopatch said:

The weather finally got warm enough and schedules worked out for some basic testing. The ice heaving the threshold of the doors gave us a problem getting the hangar doors opened.

Checked the usual suspects, got it started and did some extended ground runs and high speed taxi texts. Ran it for about an hour and nothing obvious showing in the data so far. With the snow falling now, I don’t expect it to be above 30 until late next week. Both tanks are still around half full, still loaded with 100LL, still no water in the sumps. Pumps seem to fine.

So, really, no; no news.

WIth it below freezing, you wont find water in the sumps yet, Chris