Dumb Ice ??

[carusoam]

Steiney,

All it does is reduce the surface tension of the surface of the airplane.... where applied...

This causes beading because the water is unable to stick to the surface... very helpful...

Quite magical, if you could keep the coating attached to the wing. And have it applied pretty far back, all over the wing... and all over the plain...

RainX is/was a Teflon dissolved in a strong alcohol based solvent. Not particularly known to be paint friendly... not bad for glass...

TKS is a slippery material that is best spread on the surface prior to ice accumulation.  No known issues with paint.   Has a tendency to take a while to move through the TKS system.  So priming is a great idea, before needing it...

I'm a big fan of RainX on the windshield of my car... you can see how well it works in freezing rain... completely afraid of putting it on acrylic and other expensive polymeric surfaces....

Call me a scaredy cat.... 

Best regards,

-a-

[steingar]

I've used similar substances on leading edges in the past, mostly for bugs.  I've also used it on the windshield of my motorcycle.  You are correct vis a vis your observations, but water will still adhere to the surface.  Not with the same avidity as to an untreated surface, but it will still stick.    And once it does so there are more surfaces for water to stick.

I have no idea how long such a treatment would last on a leading edge.  I know my polymer wax easily lasts a couple years/100 hours of service.

[peevee]

Tks is hard as shit on paint. It eats the paint off the plastic housing on our evs camera.

[BradB]

On 12/1/2017 at 10:35 AM, peevee said:

Tks is hard as shit on paint. It eats the paint off the plastic housing on our evs camera.

TKS doesn’t seem to bother mine.  Wait, damn, don’t have one of those.  Always thought that it would be pretty cool, though.   I was interested to know if the camera would end up covered in ice or is there enough run back off of the bottom of the wing that the TKS keeps it clear?  I’ve never tried to put an external camera on mine in icing to see what it would look like.  Not anything that I am planning on doing either.  

[1964-M20E]

On 11/30/2017 at 9:31 PM, M016576 said:

Where in Idaho?

Idaho Falls

 

[exM20K]

14 hours ago, BradB said:

TKS doesn’t seem to bother mine.  Wait, damn, don’t have one of those.  Always thought that it would be pretty cool, though.   I was interested to know if the camera would end up covered in ice or is there enough run back off of the bottom of the wing that the TKS keeps it clear?  I’ve never tried to put an external camera on mine in icing to see what it would look like.  Not anything that I am planning on doing either.  

The TKS panels really save the paint on a Mooney.  Many M20's flown in the rain at high TAS frequently will have the paint eroded from the leading edge of the wings.  It looks terrible and is not easy to patch.  The TKS panel completely cures this cosmetic mess.

[Skates97]

On 12/1/2017 at 5:33 AM, carusoam said:

 

Flying a super clean airplane sounds helpful... but the mechanical act of smacking into supercooled fluids causes the initiation of ice formation to occur.

Somebody posted YouTube videos of supercooled water turning to ice.  Around here somewhere...

 

Here you go.

 

[BradB]

On 12/3/2017 at 11:08 AM, exM20K said:

The TKS panels really save the paint on a Mooney.  Many M20's flown in the rain at high TAS frequently will have the paint eroded from the leading edge of the wings.  It looks terrible and is not easy to patch.  The TKS panel completely cures this cosmetic mess.

Agree!  I fly in a decent amount of precip and IMC.   The leading edges of the very tip of the wings in the unprotected areas has taken a beating.   The panels keep everything else looking nice.   No doubt that a repaint would be in order without the panels.  

Edited December 5, 2017 by BradB

[Browncbr1]

My uncle had faux rubber boots installed on his wings (c401) ..  looks like boots, but actually just a thin sheet of black rubber that is laminated to the leading edge.    Keeps rain from eroding paint and keeps wint looking nice. 

[Piloto]

On ‎12‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 9:46 AM, carusoam said:

Steiney,

All it does is reduce the surface tension of the surface of the airplane.... where applied...

This causes beading because the water is unable to stick to the surface... very helpful...

Quite magical, if you could keep the coating attached to the wing. And have it applied pretty far back, all over the wing... and all over the plain...

RainX is/was a Teflon dissolved in a strong alcohol based solvent. Not particularly known to be paint friendly... not bad for glass...

TKS is a slippery material that is best spread on the surface prior to ice accumulation.  No known issues with paint.   Has a tendency to take a while to move through the TKS system.  So priming is a great idea, before needing it...

I'm a big fan of RainX on the windshield of my car... you can see how well it works in freezing rain... completely afraid of putting it on acrylic and other expensive polymeric surfaces....

Call me a scaredy cat.... 

Best regards,

-a-

Try Rain-X Plastic https://www.rainx.com/product/plastic-water-repellent/rain-x-plastic-water-repellent/#.WiVaBLpFxuk

It is harmless on plastics and paint.

[carusoam]

'New' ....   First time I’ve seen that.  ^^^

-a-

[L. Trotter]

A recent personal experience with ice. Not good.

First a little background – I live in SD and have been flying the northern tear year round for some 30 years. I'd like to think I know ice but she's a fickle thing with many faces.I currently fly a Mooney with TKS and am very familiar with the systems capabilities and lack there of. 

It was April 7, 2017. The flight was from Stockton, CA (KSCK) to Corvallis, OR (KCVO). IFR conditions prevailed over the mountains with NO icing forecasted. Along the southern Oregon coast at approximately 12,000 feet, temperature hovering around 0 to -2 C (10 C lower than forecasted), TKS system primed and running on low, I encountered freezing rain! I immediately turned the TKS system to high. In a matter of 10 seconds my windshield and leading edge of the wing accumulated approximately 1 1/2 inch of ice-maybe more.  it looked as though my tail was worse. I could not believe how incredibly fast things happened. From my perspective at this moment the TKS system was of no value. The system was completely overwhelmed. TKS fluid could be seen running back over the top of the wing from previous use. The ice accumulated perhaps a foot back from the leading edge. Within five seconds of the encounter I had requested immediate course reversal from ATC. Per my routine I make mental notes of cloud brakes/layers/temps and other more favorable locations as I continually update plan B, C and D. I returned to a clearing that was shortly behind me. I made a circling descending pattern to the MEA. This put me in warmer air, out of the rain and allowed the TKS system to catch up. I was able to shed ice off all protected surfaces of the plane.I completed the rest of the trip uneventfully at a lower altitude.

On my same ATC frequency was another pilot in my same area. He was in serious trouble. I could hear the frantic cries of the pilot asking for help. "I have no airspeed", "I can't maintain altitude", "I'm losing control", "I'm going down" were repeated over and over.  ATC was trying to offer assistance but could do little. After about 5 minutes the radio went silent. I later learned the next AM that a Malibu went down killing all 4 on board. I don't know if it was the aircraft- I suspect it was given the time and location.

A very sobering experience.

Take home lessons:

1. Ice kills, period! (even in capable aircraft)

2. Wether forecasted or not, expect ice in ANY visible moisture with temps +4C or lower (maybe to -25 or -30 C). This includes summer months as well. I have encountered ice every month of the year.

3. With temp inversions, beware if you are flying in freezing temps below clouds-VFR.

4. Always have plan B and C. Updates these plans continuously. 

5. Expect the unexpected.

6. If you are FIKI equipped, you are not invincible.  These systems should be considered a means of buying time to get out of the icing condition.

7. There is a reason non-FIKI ideas (WD-40, Rain-X, pre flight TKS spray etc.) are not certified. We and are passengers (family) are not test subjects. I know will all want more utility out of our planes. Flying safe will allow you more time to get that utility.

8. Icing conditions are VERY unpredictable. You can think "I will only pick up a little" and actually load up faster than you can believe. In a real way, ice is winters equivalent of the summer thunderstorm. I'm not sure which is worse. You will quickly run out of power if airframe icing is not Shed.

9. If you are picking up ice on descent.....Don't use airbrakes and consider a no flap landing with higher than normal airspeed-perhaps +10 kts, maybe more if heavy.

10. When/if you encounter ice, take immediate pro active action to get out of the situation-TIME IS OF THE ESSENCE!

The bottom line....treat ice like you want your daughter (or son) treated while dating....With absolute RESPECT!

 

 

[jaylw314]

 

6 hours ago, Piloto said:

Try Rain-X Plastic https://www.rainx.com/product/plastic-water-repellent/rain-x-plastic-water-repellent/#.WiVaBLpFxuk

It is harmless on plastics and paint.

Here's the Amazon link.  I've used it, it works "okay".  No obvious problems with acrylic.  Not as good as the glass stuff, but it at least seems to make water come off the windshield somewhat faster.  Haven't tested it in icing and don't plan to...

[Piloto]

If you let the ice plug the TKS panels it will take a while to remove the ice. This is no a major problem if you have enough TKS fluid. I had a similar experience to that of Trotter on a Ovation over the UK in winter time. The problem is running out of TKS fluid and having all those little holes on the panel serving as an anchor for the ice. The reason Rain-X works is because is applied on a smooth shinny surface but would not work on a rough surface.

[carusoam]

LT,

Thanks  for the detailed description of your icing experience.

I'm glad you shared that.

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

42 minutes ago, carusoam said:

LT,

Thanks  for the detailed description of your icing experience.

I'm glad you shared that.

 

Me, too. Now there is absolutely, positively no need for me to experience it myself! 

I like your description of icing cinditions as the winter equivalent of thunderstorms. Easy to remember, easy for everyone to understand.

[milotron]

Mildly off topic..

Interesting weather today. Beautiful clear with low, cold fog down low near the ocean.

I ended up driving for other reasons, bur freezing fog was METARed as several local airports. The most recent one reports 1/4" rime ice on the weather instruments at the airfield!

iain

[AndyFromCB]

On 12/4/2017 at 12:48 PM, L. Trotter said:

A recent personal experience with ice. Not good.

First a little background – I live in SD and have been flying the northern tear year round for some 30 years. I'd like to think I know ice but she's a fickle thing with many faces.I currently fly a Mooney with TKS and am very familiar with the systems capabilities and lack there of. 

It was April 7, 2017. The flight was from Stockton, CA (KSCK) to Corvallis, OR (KCVO). IFR conditions prevailed over the mountains with NO icing forecasted. Along the southern Oregon coast at approximately 12,000 feet, temperature hovering around 0 to -2 C (10 C lower than forecasted), TKS system primed and running on low, I encountered freezing rain! I immediately turned the TKS system to high. In a matter of 10 seconds my windshield and leading edge of the wing accumulated approximately 1 1/2 inch of ice-maybe more.  it looked as though my tail was worse. I could not believe how incredibly fast things happened. From my perspective at this moment the TKS system was of no value. The system was completely overwhelmed. TKS fluid could be seen running back over the top of the wing from previous use. The ice accumulated perhaps a foot back from the leading edge. Within five seconds of the encounter I had requested immediate course reversal from ATC. Per my routine I make mental notes of cloud brakes/layers/temps and other more favorable locations as I continually update plan B, C and D. I returned to a clearing that was shortly behind me. I made a circling descending pattern to the MEA. This put me in warmer air, out of the rain and allowed the TKS system to catch up. I was able to shed ice off all protected surfaces of the plane.I completed the rest of the trip uneventfully at a lower altitude.

On my same ATC frequency was another pilot in my same area. He was in serious trouble. I could hear the frantic cries of the pilot asking for help. "I have no airspeed", "I can't maintain altitude", "I'm losing control", "I'm going down" were repeated over and over.  ATC was trying to offer assistance but could do little. After about 5 minutes the radio went silent. I later learned the next AM that a Malibu went down killing all 4 on board. I don't know if it was the aircraft- I suspect it was given the time and location.

A very sobering experience.

Take home lessons:

1. Ice kills, period! (even in capable aircraft)

2. Wether forecasted or not, expect ice in ANY visible moisture with temps +4C or lower (maybe to -25 or -30 C). This includes summer months as well. I have encountered ice every month of the year.

3. With temp inversions, beware if you are flying in freezing temps below clouds-VFR.

4. Always have plan B and C. Updates these plans continuously. 

5. Expect the unexpected.

6. If you are FIKI equipped, you are not invincible.  These systems should be considered a means of buying time to get out of the icing condition.

7. There is a reason non-FIKI ideas (WD-40, Rain-X, pre flight TKS spray etc.) are not certified. We and are passengers (family) are not test subjects. I know will all want more utility out of our planes. Flying safe will allow you more time to get that utility.

8. Icing conditions are VERY unpredictable. You can think "I will only pick up a little" and actually load up faster than you can believe. In a real way, ice is winters equivalent of the summer thunderstorm. I'm not sure which is worse. You will quickly run out of power if airframe icing is not Shed.

9. If you are picking up ice on descent.....Don't use airbrakes and consider a no flap landing with higher than normal airspeed-perhaps +10 kts, maybe more if heavy.

10. When/if you encounter ice, take immediate pro active action to get out of the situation-TIME IS OF THE ESSENCE!

The bottom line....treat ice like you want your daughter (or son) treated while dating....With absolute RESPECT!

 

 

Clearly your fault, you didn't wipe your leading edges with Rain-X ;-)

On a serious note, freezing rain shows up just fine on aircraft radar, why did the PA46 go down. If I'm flying a radar equipped aircraft (only way I deal with serious IMC these days), my OAT is +2 or below, I see anything on the screen at my level, I'm GTFOD.

Edited December 7, 2017 by AndyFromCB

[Hank]

On 12/6/2017 at 10:51 PM, AndyFromCB said:

Do you . . .  Do you . . . Seriously, my last *** post on this board. Adios amigos. ****. I can't anymore.

Farewell, Andy.

If there's someone you can't ignore, there's a built-in ignore feature. It works very well, the only thing Ignored Users post that you will ever see is if someone else quotes them in a reply. Makes it a nicer experience . . . .

[Piloto]

8 hours ago, AndyFromCB said:

Do you even have a basic understanding of physics or chemistry? Is your degree from Trump University? Do you actually fly anymore or are you doing it from an old folks home bed? I can pour super cooled water on a brand spanking new teflon pan and it will stick. Rain-X won't do shit to ice. Teflon won't do shit. The attachment works on molecular level much smaller than anything the width of human hair. Do you really think it's some sort of a fucking conspiracy to sell hot wings, boots and TKS panels. Seriously, my last fucking post on this board. Adios amigos. Jesus Christ. I can't anymore.

Will miss you

[mooniac15u]

Supercooled water vapor can deposit directly on surfaces as a solid.  This will effectively create a frost-like layer that provides a base for rapid ice accumulation.  The hydrophobicity of the coating will not have an effect on this type of deposition. 

[Browncbr1]

5 hours ago, Hank said:

Farewell, Andy.

If there's someone you can't ignore, there's a built-in ignore feature. It works very well, the only thing Ignored Users post that you will ever see is if someone else quotes them in a reply. Makes it a nicer experience . . . .

 

aaaaaand another one joins my ignore list..... 

[Hank]

2 hours ago, mooniac15u said:

Supercooled water vapor can deposit directly on surfaces as a solid.  This will effectively create a frost-like layer that provides a base for rapid ice accumulation.  The hydrophobicity of the coating will not have an effect on this type of deposition. 

Come to MooneySpace, enlargen your vocabulary!

[Andy95W]

On 12/6/2017 at 10:51 PM, AndyFromCB said:

 Seriously, my last ****** post on this board. Adios amigos. *****. I can't anymore.

 

On 12/7/2017 at 10:51 AM, Hank said:

Come to MooneySpace, enlargen your vocabulary!

Golly!  

[mooniac15u]

21 minutes ago, Hank said:

Come to MooneySpace, enlargen your vocabulary!

Sorry, when I get into chemist mode it just comes out that way.