Formation Flights

[Seth]

Its obvious to me that in some of the great pictures that have been taken and posted of our Mooneys that the only way to get that sort of picture is to be in formation with another aircraft during flight.  What kind of formation training have you (as in any of the pilots here on MooneySpace) been through and what do suggest. 

I would love to fly in formation with someone and learn the nuances, but I wouldn't dare do it without formal training.  Which comes to the next part:  Do you recommend any qualified CFI that you trust, or specifically a school or location for it? 

I'd love to get some great shots of my Mooney in flight, but there is no way I'm going to fly in formation without proper training.

As always, thanks for everyone's responses and opinions.

-Seth 

 

 

[Seth]

Obvioiusly, some of us are current or former military pilots, and you can't beat that training in my opinion.  I'm not a military pilot, but that goes without saying.

-Seth

[GeorgePerry]

Quote: Seth

Obvioiusly, some of us are current or former military pilots, and you can't beat that training in my opinion.  I'm not a military pilot, but that goes without saying.

-Seth

Seth,

I can tell you that it's harder than it looks...at least to do well.  My definition of "well" is probably much more stringent than a civilian pilot.  There are rules in the FAR's about the requirements for formation flights, but they don't cover the amount of training and preparation required to do this well and safely.

A good analogy for formation flying is that it's like learning to ride a bike.  Not hard once you figure it out, but there's no getting around the required learning process. Here's an excerpt from an AOPA article on the subject which sums it up nicely

"There is reward and satisfaction in formation flight. However, to approach even a basic level of safety, there must be a commensurate passion and enthusiasm. To become skilled, pilots must invest in the training and practice. A casual approach is not appropriate to this activity. Will you trust your life and that of everyone on board your aircraft to the skill of the other pilot? With proper training and practice it can be done, but don't be deluded into thinking it's a walk in the park. The record tends to indicate otherwise."

FAR 91.111 states that "no person may operate so close to another aircraft as to create a collision hazard." There must be prior arrangement so that each pilot in the formation knows about the proposed operation and agrees to it. Finally, formation flight with paying passengers on board is prohibited.

I would add that two inexperienced pilots should not attempt to learn formation flying with each other.  In my humble opinion as a Super Hornet Instructor pilot that's taught dozens of young Naval Aviators the basics of formation, if you're going to do this you must have one experienced pilot in the lead aircraft and the student as dash 2 with an experienced instructor sitting next to him.  Anything less is foolish.  I would try to find a military (TACAIR) guy or an experienced air show pilot who’s familiar with form to show you the basics.   Find someone who knows what the “ABC’s” of form stand for and the correct procedures for breakup / rendezvous and under-runs.  If someone says they know how to fly form but can’t describe the procedures for those in-flight maneuvers, don’t believe them.

Pilots that fly "bush league" formation might be able to get that in-flight Pic.   But the standards they are flying too and the comfort level they experience, is inversely proportate to the relative distance from the other aircraft.  

[KSMooniac]

George, would you by chance be interested in putting on some sort of formation flying clinic?  I would suggest that the military training is the best there is for formation work, so you might be qualified to help us civvies learn the craft.  I'm interested in some training, but haven't really found anything out there in my searches, but perhaps I haven't looked hard enough.  I'm not sure of the FARs in terms of formation training...ie is a CFI required?  I would think not since the respective pilots are already qualified and there is no "rating" for formation flying.

You might have no interest in trying to put something together, but I thought I'd throw it out there as a suggestion.  In my mind it could be combined with a Mooney fly-in somewhere, a ground school for an hour or two to brief procedures, and then some flying.  Obviously the more ex-military or otherwise formation-savvy pilots to assist the better, too.

I'm interested because (a) it is something new, ( I would like to take some air-to-air pics safely and © might want to fly in the Mooney Caravan to OSH this year or next.

[GeorgePerry]

Quote: KSMooniac

George, would you by chance be interested in putting on some sort of formation flying clinic?  I would suggest that the military training is the best there is for formation work, so you might be qualified to help us civvies learn the craft.  I'm interested in some training, but haven't really found anything out there in my searches, but perhaps I haven't looked hard enough.  I'm not sure of the FARs in terms of formation training...ie is a CFI required?  I would think not since the respective pilots are already qualified and there is no "rating" for formation flying.

[Seth]

I'd be very interested in that as well.  I'm not too far away (Maryland) - this may be a great 1st or second event for the soon to be Mid-Atlantic Vintage Mooney Group that I plan to finally start up soon.

[GeorgePerry]

Gents

I've spoken with my F-18 Buddies and one is definitely up for it, so we've got two qualified F-18 Hornet flyers (Both Mooney Owners) standing by.  Also I'm checking with the FSDO wrt legalities of a couple of Military Instructor Pilots providing civilian "instruction" for formation flying.  I should hear back from the FAA tomorrow.  I've already coordinated with EADS flight school at PVG for classrooms and ramp space.  Once the FSDO gives the yea or nea, we'll look at setting a date and providing reading material and a syllabus. 

Assuming we get the go-ahead,   Soon I'll put out an RSVP for all interested.  We'll probably want to limit the numbers to 4 participants so we can pair up and fly back to back sorties.

So, If you're definitely in please stand by while I finish the coordination.  Once that's done I'll put out a firm date. 

 

[KSMooniac]

George, that is EXCELLENT news!  I'm glad you and your buddies are interested, and I'm anxious to hear what the FSDO has to say.  Hopefully there are no beauacratic hurdles since it isn't really instruction towards a rating or an endorsement like tailwheel.  In case you were wondering, I wouldn't expect this endeavor to be free for us either.

Is one of your buddies Tom Bush by chance?

I have already been thinking about an east coast trip this summer, as has another Mooney friend of mine from here.  This could work out nicely.

[Chris White ex-N205KD]

Yes, Bill is now a "former" Mooney pilot, unfortunately.  He is partner in an F33A now.

Last we talked, Bill strongly recommended I stay out of the Caravan until they started running it more like B2OSH.

I am IN for this training!  Sounds awesome. 

Quote: JimR

Many of you probably recall (former?) Mooney pilot Bill Kite's article from a few years ago comparing and contrasting the Mooney Caravan and the Bonanzas to Oshkosh SOPs. The Bonanza guys have been down this road before and would probably be willing to help. I'm not talking about formation flying techniques here (as I'm sure that George and his fellow F-18 pilots are eminently qualified) as much as I'm talking about liability and regulatory concerns. I remember seeing the American Bonanza Society's office at the airport in Wichita a few years ago when I was at Flight Safety. All Bonanza and Mooney biases aside, they would probably be willing to share their experiences and best practices.

[GeorgePerry]

Quote: KSMooniac

George, that is EXCELLENT news!  I'm glad you and your buddies are interested, and I'm anxious to hear what the FSDO has to say.  Hopefully there are no beauacratic hurdles since it isn't really instruction towards a rating or an endorsement like tailwheel.  In case you were wondering, I wouldn't expect this endeavor to be free for us either.

Is one of your buddies Tom Bush by chance?

I have already been thinking about an east coast trip this summer, as has another Mooney friend of mine from here.  This could work out nicely.

[N9240M]

George, count me in!  The down side is that there's a mountain flying course in Denver that same weekend that KSMooniac and I were planning to attend, but I'm sure they hold more than one class per year.  Any chance Tom will be back from deployment during that time?  I've chatted with him a couple times about E models, and would really like to get him to help with the rigging on my plane.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Definitely interested as well, however that will be around the time I'll be finishing my CFI, so the dates are questionable.

 

Keep us posted!

[dlthig]

George,

     There is an NPRM to convert our Military Instructor ratings to a CFI.  If you get a chance to talk to the FSDO you may want to ask.  I'm still flying the desk at PAM.

[GeorgePerry]

See the new thread for up to date info on the proposed form clinic / Mid Atlantic Mooney fly-in

http://www.mooneyspace.com/index.cfm?mainaction=posts&forumid=4&threadid=245#post2253

[jrjaks]

Quote: dlthig

George,

     There is an NPRM to convert our Military Instructor ratings to a CFI.  If you get a chance to talk to the FSDO you may want to ask.  I'm still flying the desk at PAM.

[GeorgePerry]

I don't have a link handy but I'd call your local FSDO and speak with an Ops Inspector.  They should be familiar with the process.

 

[mooniac58]

Oh man I am so PISSED I live in Hawaii right now.  I cannot tell you how bad I would love to do this training, especially with qualified military pilots sharing their experience and technique.

I hope this gets to be a regular thing so that I can attend something like this when I move back to the mainland in 1-2 years!

[GeorgePerry]

If the feedback is positive and we get good attendance then the plan is to do this periodically...