Introducing Dynon Certified

[peevee]

  On 7/24/2017 at 8:37 PM, aviatoreb said:

I guess $2k is "something like" $1k.

Where did they say that old guy?  BTW how old are you to be calling yourself old guy?

So a small peeve - when they announced they built their experimental C172 for $16k "out the door", they meant it cost THEM $16k for the parts, not including labor or the STC which they did not charge themselves.  I think with STC and install roughstimate, add $10K to the parts cost off the experimental list price for STC+labor.  I say small peeve because its reasonable and expected, so they just should have said it that way.

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the website, though it specifies for the 172, we could be more

 

  Quote

Dynon Certified Pricing and Availability

Dynon expects to receive STC and PMA approval for the Cessna 172 and Beechcraft B58 Baron shortly, with additional aircraft types to follow. Installation will be available through a Dynon direct installation center in the Seattle area, as well as through a network of approved installers. Pricing for Dynon Certified products will be the same as for the LSA/experimental versions, with affordable STCs priced separately. The cost of the equipment installed in the initial C172 is approximately $16,000. This complete SkyView HDX system includes Primary Flight Instruments, Engine Monitoring, Autopilot, Mode S Transponder with 2020-compliant ADS-B Out, Mapping with Flight Planning, ADS-B In Traffic and Weather, Battery Backup, and more. It also includes redundant flight instruments via a Dynon EFIS-D10A. The initial C172 STC will be priced at $2000.

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[Mark89114]

I think BK means Q13 2017, thirteenth quarter of 2017....another 3 years is my guess. 

Personally I wish BK could get it together to offer a product that replaces the KI-256. For the $6000 that buys 2 rebuilds of KI-256 over the years.....would allow these other products to mature a bit and the allow the competitive market to really get it right.  But I have no faith, honestly don't know why it is so hard to build a digital KI-256, the outputs are relatively simple, up/down, bank angle and I assume yaw?  There can't be a decision tree that complicated?  I would have bought a KI-300 and would consider this new product.......but 3Q 2017 is right now.....

 

[gsengle]

  On 7/24/2017 at 8:37 PM, aviatoreb said:

I guess $2k is "something like" $1k.
Where did they say that old guy?  BTW how old are you to be calling yourself old guy?
So a small peeve - when they announced they built their experimental C172 for $16k "out the door", they meant it cost THEM $16k for the parts, not including labor or the STC which they did not charge themselves.  I think with STC and install roughstimate, add $10K to the parts cost off the experimental list price for STC+labor.  I say small peeve because its reasonable and expected, so they just should have said it that way.

Remember these guys are used to being in the experimental not certified realm. Where people install their own stuff...


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[Godfather]

The KI300 opens a lot of possibilities for those that want to keep things mostly steam and for those who want the new cheap(er) glass but want to retain their current AP. 

However, I've lost faith in the BK company as a whole and the only way I'll put one in my plane is if I can send the unit to Sandia for repairs etc. 

[Oldguy]

  On 7/24/2017 at 8:37 PM, aviatoreb said:

I guess $2k is "something like" $1k.

Where did they say that old guy?  BTW how old are you to be calling yourself old guy?

So a small peeve - when they announced they built their experimental C172 for $16k "out the door", they meant it cost THEM $16k for the parts, not including labor or the STC which they did not charge themselves.  I think with STC and install roughstimate, add $10K to the parts cost off the experimental list price for STC+labor.  I say small peeve because its reasonable and expected, so they just should have said it that way.

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The $2k figure came off of their web site announcing the product. 

http://www.dynonavionics.com/certified/

The "Oldguy" part comes from my relative age in my chosen career. Even though @Bob_Belville would call me a kid at 62, I started off programming by wiring boards that drop into large mainframes and changing disk drives with a 9/16" box end. So in my field, I am OTD (older than dirt) to some of my new hires. But the fun thing about lasting this long is they kick you upstairs to get you out of the way! 

[smccray]

  On 7/24/2017 at 9:26 PM, Godfather said:

The KI300 opens a lot of possibilities for those that want to keep things mostly steam and for those who want the new cheap(er) glass but want to retain their current AP. 

However, I've lost faith in the BK company as a whole and the only way I'll put one in my plane is if I can send the unit to Sandia for repairs etc. 

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Staying with the King system doesn't make sense to me given the options.  You get rid of the 256, but you keep the HSI- you're out $5300 plus install.  You still have the HSI (which I don't find to be reliable).  So you replace the HSI, you spend $3K plus install on the Garmin G5 and it interfaces with the king autopilot.  While you're in there, you go ahead and take care of your ADSB out needs, low cost at another $2K.  These are my needs today- that's $10K and I have a king AI and an old king autopilot.  Going with the Garmin setup, I spend $13K plus install and I end up with a digital autopilot that adds altitude preselect and envelope protection.  That 3K difference makes sense to me- I wouldn't add the King AI unless there is a reason you can't install a non-TSO'd autopilot like the GFC500, assuming we get that option for the M20 series.

However... if we compare the $13K Garmin setup with the $16K from Dynon... pretty easy to see where I'm headed.  Add a couple extra $ and you end up with a 2 screen system with fully redundant AHARS, redundant WAAS gps (not IFR at this point), full engine monitoring... it's a game changer.

[aviatoreb]

  On 7/24/2017 at 9:26 PM, Godfather said:

The KI300 opens a lot of possibilities for those that want to keep things mostly steam and for those who want the new cheap(er) glass but want to retain their current AP. 

However, I've lost faith in the BK company as a whole and the only way I'll put one in my plane is if I can send the unit to Sandia for repairs etc. 

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Me too - in fact I am now actively in process of researching ways to take all BK out of my airplane.

(Aside - whenever I read - or write - BK - I am always joking to myself Burger King.  No Whoppers in my airplane).

[aviatoreb]

  On 7/24/2017 at 9:45 PM, Oldguy said:

The $2k figure came off of their web site announcing the product. 

http://www.dynonavionics.com/certified/

The "Oldguy" part comes from my relative age in my chosen career. Even though @Bob_Belville would call me a kid at 62, I started off programming by wiring boards that drop into large mainframes and changing disk drives with a 9/16" box end. So in my field, I am OTD (older than dirt) to some of my new hires. But the fun thing about lasting this long is they kick you upstairs to get you out of the way! 

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:-)

This is not the beginning of the end, but the end of the beginning.  You are still at the tail end of middle aged.

..and I started programming as a young teenager on the Sinclair ZX81, and then later mowed lawns and bought an Apple II - the integer basic one before they came out with the Apple II plus with floating point.

In my business as a college prof I am automatically old as dirt because most of the people I work with are between the ages of 18 and 27 (grad students too).

[Bennett]

So far Dynon hasn't added Moony to their STC listing, but I suspect they will in the not too distant future. As I posted earlier on MS, I've had several years flying behind their older SkyView glass screens, and found them to be excellent units. It will soon be even more interesting if and when Garmin decides to STC their G3X in more aircraft (currently only the certified Carbon Cub - see the announcement). A choice between the new Dynon SkyView and the Garmin G3X would be difficult for me, at least. Either way I would remove the vacuum system including the backup electrical vacuum pump in the tail one. I think I could save over 25 pounds when all the piping and wiring are included. I would also replace my KAP 150, with its trouble prone servos, and the expensive to repair BK AI. I could also remove my Icarus SAM GPSS steering unit, making for a simpler panel. To be consistent in presentation the LifeSaver electrical backup would be replaced by either a G5, or D-10. Just when I thought my panel was complete for my needs......

 

But, realistically I can't even start until Garmin and Dynon expand their approved lists to include M 20Js. As much as I like Dynon, I think that at a reasonable price differential I would go with Garmin simply because my current panel includes a Garmin GTN 750, GTN 650, remote Garmin transponder, remote Garmin audio panel, Garmin GDL 88 ADS -B in/out, Garmin FlightSteam 210, and a Garmin 796 in an AirGizmo panel mount. I do prefer ForeFlight to Garmin Pilot though, and FlightStream works just fine with ForeFlight. I have a tentative November booking with my avionics shop if the Garmin STCs are in place by then. I guess I'm just an avionics "junky". But I do think all this data integration makes for a safer, more redundant panel. TIS-B traffic alerts sure are a great augmentation to looking out the windows.

 

 

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[PTK]

  On 7/24/2017 at 10:38 PM, Hyett6420 said:

Brilliant  BUT BUT the other weak link in the BL autopilot chain is the HSI and they DONT have a solution for that and that is what would make me look away from BK. my HSI needs servicing every one to two years, I want something reliable that gives me confidence as I go towards that ground at 120 knots

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The weak link is the vacuum system and the ADI. If either the pump or the ADI go south so does the autopilot. 

I don't consider the HSI a weak link. It is electric first of all, and secondly, even if it goes, the autopilot will still operate.

Edited July 24, 2017 by PTK

[PTK]

  On 7/24/2017 at 10:51 PM, Hyett6420 said:

So you lose vacuum and you lose your AH. Big deal. I have an electric back up one that I use in that case.  So I've lost the AP everyone of us as an IR pilot should be able to fly an approach happily manually and should practice that regularly.  If you are VFR then what's the big deal if you lose your AP (none) if in IMC then declare and emergency (cause you've lost your instruments and thus it is) fly in your electric back up and you are ok. It's what we train for surely?

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Surely.

[FBCK]

Somewhere they quoted there 172 project install was 40 hours.

[jackn]

  On 7/24/2017 at 10:38 PM, Hyett6420 said:

Brilliant  BUT BUT the other weak link in the BL autopilot chain is the HSI and they DONT have a solution for that and that is what would make me look away from BK. my HSI needs servicing every one to two years, I want something reliable that gives me confidence as I go towards that ground at 120 knots

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But, you could add a G5 HSI with GAD29B. Now you have an electric backup, although it's not certified as a backup. I wish this process was easier. 

[ArtVandelay]

  On 7/25/2017 at 12:00 AM, jackn said:

But, you could add a G5 HSI with GAD29B. Now you have an electric backup, although it's not certified as a backup. I wish this process was easier. 

But with dual G5s, you can get rid of the vacuum pump and all that goes with it.

[gsengle]

  On 7/25/2017 at 12:43 AM, teejayevans said:

But with dual G5s, you can get rid of the vacuum pump and all that goes with it.

But you can't provide an attitude source to a King autopilot...


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[Bob_Belville]

  On 7/24/2017 at 9:45 PM, Oldguy said:

The $2k figure came off of their web site announcing the product. 

http://www.dynonavionics.com/certified/

The "Oldguy" part comes from my relative age in my chosen career. Even though @Bob_Belville would call me a kid at 62, I started off programming by wiring boards that drop into large mainframes and changing disk drives with a 9/16" box end. So in my field, I am OTD (older than dirt) to some of my new hires. But the fun thing about lasting this long is they kick you upstairs to get you out of the way! 

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To quote myself, I have shoes older than you...

[ArtVandelay]

  On 7/25/2017 at 1:53 AM, gsengle said:

But you can't provide an attitude source to a King autopilot...

I have an STEC, so that's not an issue.
Unfortunately I have bad timing, my vacuum pump failed yesterday so I will need to replace it.

[PTK]

  On 7/25/2017 at 12:43 AM, teejayevans said:

But with dual G5s, you can get rid of the vacuum pump and all that goes with it.

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But in my case going this route I'd also need to replace a perfectly good autopilot. In other words G is asking me to remove a depreciating asset which is providing me free cash flow! When all I want is to address the vacuum dependence. They want me to buy more than I need when they could've easily given me what I want and I would gladly buy! Thanks but no thanks!

[mike_elliott]

  On 7/25/2017 at 4:16 AM, Bob_Belville said:

To quote myself, I have shoes older than you...

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and last time I saw you, you were still wearing them

 

[peevee]

  On 7/25/2017 at 10:39 AM, Hyett6420 said:

I'm as old as my teeth and a little older than my tongue.  Go on work that one out.  

anyway don't they say with age comes wisdom.   

Now back to the original post.   I do like what dynon have done here. My question would be is it cost effective for me to modify my planned avionics install for this.  The plan being this

aspen 1000 (one of). With all the IFR bits

avidyne 540

jpi 830.  

Garmin 225? Radio.  The ? Is because I can't ever remember the number but it's a 8.33 one

PMA intercom thing

The dynon does look nice but I have to change the ap which works so why replace it?

Andrew

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depends, which autopilot and what is providing attitude to it? If it's a king and you're keeping the ki256 attitude indicator, I'd get rid of it. If you're going to add the EA100 to the aspen to drive the AP you're light about $5kUS on your parts list

[aviatoreb]

  On 7/25/2017 at 4:16 AM, Bob_Belville said:

To quote myself, I have shoes older than you...

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[peevee]

  On 7/25/2017 at 1:04 PM, Hyett6420 said:

King KFC 150 and yes I was adding the ea100.  

So the question then is does the dynon knock the Aspen out of the window if we also replace the ap with the dynon one?

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Then there's no question really, I'd dump it all and go dynon. It's getting harder to get king parts, if those servos fail they're very costly to repair and the additional cost of the ea100 makes it worth looking seriously at the dynon stuff.

[gsengle]

  On 7/25/2017 at 1:16 PM, peevee said:

Then there's no question really, I'd dump it all and go dynon. It's getting harder to get king parts, if those servos fail they're very costly to repair and the additional cost of the ea100 makes it worth looking seriously at the dynon stuff.

I agree assuming I don't dump it all for the new Garmin stuff... I really wanna fly behind a HDX before I decide how I like it. I didn't like their smaller units when I flew in an LSA.


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[Tommy]

I am all a bit confused about G5 and 3rd party AP. I have a Kfc200 and a HSI. specially what am I going to loose by going dual G5 but leaving Kfc200 behind or dual G5 plus GFC500?

[peevee]

  On 7/25/2017 at 1:36 PM, Tommy said:

I am all a bit confused about G5 and 3rd party AP. I have a Kfc200 and a HSI. specially what am I going to loose by going dual G5 but leaving Kfc200 behind or dual G5 plus GFC500?

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the g5 won't provide attitude to the AP so you'll need to keep your king AI