67C tips for an Ovation Pilot

[Tx_Aggie]

So today I embarked on my first flight out to the small town of Alpine, TX for a well crafted cappuccino. Specifically, the Cedar Coffee supply. Alpine is a great stop for those needing a traveling break!

During the initial flight, I had about 135 Knots over the ground at 8000' and about 9 gph. On the return, I enjoyed 7.5 gph at 11,000' at an average of 147 knots over the ground. I'm beginning to see why the 4 cylinder engine has such a following!

My only quirks were the Apollo gx60. Super complicated and unnecessarily difficult. I only ended up using it as a 2nd com and filed /U while monitoring my iPhone's foreflight map when I could catch service. For now I think I'll look to catch either a 1st gen stratus or maybe a used 2nd gen to connect foreflight to in order to monitor gps, weather and traffic. Attached are a few photos from today. Thanks for the help.


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[carusoam]

Great update/Pirep/photos, Aggie!

Check into your foreflight set-up.  You shouldn't need cell 'service' for the device to work...

Best regards,

-a-

[Tx_Aggie]

Great update/Pirep/photos, Aggie!
Check into your foreflight set-up.  You shouldn't need cell 'service' for the device to work...
Best regards,
-a-

I'm using my iPhone though, not an iPad. I didn't think the iPhones had the gps that the iPad does, do they?


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[toto]

10 minutes ago, Tx_Aggie said:

I'm using my iPhone though, not an iPad. I didn't think the iPhones had the gps that the iPad does, do they?


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Yes, every iPhone has a GPS chip, but only iPads with cellular data will have GPS.

Iow, your iPhone will definitely work.

(But if you had a wifi-only iPad, you'd need an external GPS.)

[Tx_Aggie]

A few more questions following my most recent flight and planning my next. The Stec 60-2 is great in cruise mode. I know it has the capability to hold vertical speed but this particular set up has no altitude preselect function.

Second, is there anyone out there with Apollo/Garmin gx60 or gx series experience? After watching a few YouTube videos and earnestly trying the free simulator I've come to realize the set up isn't exactly intuitive. Perhaps I'm just missing it though. I'd love to have the Stec shoot an approach, but I believe it is limited by the pre-waas vintage technology in the gx so at this point I'm limited to ILS approaches. But even at that I haven't been able to successfully "load" and ils into the unit. Any thoughts?


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[jamesm]

How  does landing flare in the 'C' model  compare to the  'R" model  Ovation ?   which is more pitch sensitive is  it noticeable ?

Just curious

James '67C

[Tx_Aggie]

5 hours ago, jamesm said:

How  does landing flare in the 'C' model  compare to the  'R" model  Ovation ?   which is more pitch sensitive is  it noticeable ?

Just curious

James '67C

At this point I'd say more sensitivity on the Ovation. Due to the larger engine/larger speed changes when adjusting to maintain 90 kts on approach then 80 kts over the numbers... I felt better prepared going from the O to the C in that regard. For me it was easier to maintain the same concept knowing that all Mooneys are fast on the descent/approach/flare. So the expectation was similar - to be spot on with my speeds  during this phase of flight, but the C's reactions were a bit more forgiving. On final approach in the O, when full flaps are applied, vigorous up-trim is needed to maintain the approach speed/angle. The nose tends to want to drop like a rock after that last notch of flaps. That tendency isn't noticed in the C. 

Another adjustment for me is switching from kias on the O for reference speeds to mias (mph) on the outer ring of the airspeed indicator! The numbers are referenced in mph in the C, I guess that's the way things were back in the 60s. 

Does that make sense?

I thoroughly enjoy the fuel burn, especially at the higher altitudes (145-150 kts over the ground on 7.5 gph is awesome!) I'm super curious to see what the J will do in my area/tempted to aim my sights for one. Ive begun noticing on FlightAware the few Js that fly at those altitudes really tend to sail. 165-185 kts on Same/similar fuel burn is just plain awesome. 

Edited July 27, 2017 by Tx_Aggie

[carusoam]

I took a year off from flying between the C and R...

It took a good day of TT to get used to all the airspeeds and attitudes around the traffic pattern.

Day two was magical. After a good night's rest, everything falls in place...

They are different, but not that different...

Anyone that flys multiple planes at a time will never notice.

If you only fly one plane, the adjustable seat, the tall IP, and the loooong nose make the R very different than the C.

It is possible to have a tale strike in an R. Something to cover in the TT....

manual trim and manual flaps... takes a bit of getting used to.  Speeds of deployment takes getting used to.

The O is more forgiving.  You never notice the amount of work the motors are going through.

Best regards,

-a-

[jamesm]

19 hours ago, carusoam said:

t took a good day of TT

I am unfamiliar 'TT' used in this context.. TT=  24Hrs TT=8Hrs TT=???? 

Thanks,

James

[carusoam]

Sorry @jamesm James....   Transition Training. 

 

I was so focussed on trying to make the point that...   

• the human brain tires quickly during the first day of training
• it may get tired before smooth landings can be achieved
• after good cognitive rest, the previous day's training starts to work, apearing like magic...
• The oddity... it can be tough to identify that one's brain is tired...  unless you do this to yourself intentionally?

I glossed over the important part regarding making it understandable for everybody.

My bad,

-a-

[Tx_Aggie]

2nd cross country to Kerrville for a weekend at the river. Couldn't leave the airport though without a photo like this! A little dark but worth the turbulence to get there yesterday. 

[Tx_Aggie]

Current databases are available for the GX60 from Jeppesen:
http://jeppdirect.jeppesen.com/legal/charts/ads-overview.jsp?ostc=ostc00186wh&omnostcloc=lr2

The website doesn't look like it still services the gx series. When I click the link it takes me to popular products page. I have an email into customer support. Thanks


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[Tx_Aggie]

Okay I got the gps updated and good to go. The last issue I can't seem to solve is the Stec 60-2 vertical speed. I don't have altitude preselect but I've been told if I orient the airplane in a climb or descent, then press the "VS" button, it should hold the descent rate. I've tried this several times to no avail. Any thoughts on how to hold vertical speed with this set up?


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[neilpilot]

9 minutes ago, Tx_Aggie said:

Okay I got the gps updated and good to go. The last issue I can't seem to solve is the Stec 60-2 vertical speed. I don't have altitude preselect but I've been told if I orient the airplane in a climb or descent, then press the "VS" button, it should hold the descent rate. I've tried this several times to no avail. Any thoughts on how to hold vertical speed with this set up?


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need a copy of their POH? I just copied it to the MS download section.

[Tx_Aggie]

need a copy of their POH? I just copied it to the MS download section.

Yes, thank you.


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[Tx_Aggie]

So I've probably accumulated about 50 hours in the C since this first post. Recently, in support of Hurricane Harvey relief efforts, I joined the pilots from the Facebook group, Operation Airdrop to ferry tools and supplies to the Texas coast. It was a great experience but I did have one problem: the C was in annual and the Ovation was already reserved. So I got checked out in and flew a late model Arrow, which supposedly has the fuel injected IO-360 of the M20/J. While I did notice the subtle power increase, the negligence towards efficiency was obvious. I gave that little thing every opportunity to open the sails up and I bet I averaged 135 Knots over the ground going both directions at best. Causes me to further appreciate the ability of Mooney's signature craftsmanship of doing more with less.

I averaged about 138 KTAS in the C during the heat of Texas summer. I'm interested to see how it performs with cooler weather. The Ovation averages about 15 KTAS increase over the averages in the summer, wondering if that factor will be the same on the C? Do any of you notice performance increases when the weather cools off a bit? Thanks!


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[Tx_Aggie]

Also, and maybe this is a warmer climate related issue also, but this C is dreadful on hot starts. For instance, on the airfield I'm based at, after I land I'll taxi over to the self serve fuel pump to top off before I put the plane up. After 20 minutes or so of stretching my legs, potty break and fueling up the plane, I'm probably 10-15 tries before I get the prop going again. Any thoughts? I appreciate it!


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[Hank]

In my C, I notice improved cold weather climb more than speed. One weekend my wife stayed in bed and i went to breakfast solo, 8°F at takeoff. She climbed like the proverbial homesick angel!

Hot starts aren't too bad. I just go Full Rich, pump the throttle a couple of times (watch fuel pressure go down a little), turn the key and push. It generally takes a few more seconds, and sometimes starts a little rough. Are your cold starts good?  Two or three blades then running?

[steingar]

I need better friends.  No one has ever asked me to fly their airplane for gas money.

[Tx_Aggie]

In my C, I notice improved cold weather climb more than speed. One weekend my wife stayed in bed and i went to breakfast solo, 8°F at takeoff. She climbed like the proverbial homesick angel!
Hot starts aren't too bad. I just go Full Rich, pump the throttle a couple of times (watch fuel pressure go down a little), turn the key and push. It generally takes a few more seconds, and sometimes starts a little rough. Are your cold starts good?  Two or three blades then running?

Cold starts are typically 4-5 blades. But first time every time. Do you leave the fuel pump running while starting? When you say "pump" the throttle, is that with the fuel pump or without?


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[Andy95W]

When my engine is hot, I don't prime at all.  And the fuel pump on a carbureted airplane doesn't do anything once the carburetor bowl is filled.

I just go mixture full rich, throttle at idle, and crank.  If it goes more than 3 or 4 blades, start to open the throttle to 1/4-1/2".  The engine (like all of them) is simply trying to find a mixture that will support combustion. The more ambient heat available, the less fuel is needed.

[Hank]

2 hours ago, Tx_Aggie said:

Cold starts are typically 4-5 blades. But first time every time. Do you leave the fuel pump running while starting? When you say "pump" the throttle, is that with the fuel pump or without?


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With Throttle at Idle and Mixture Cut Off, I run the fuel pump until pressure builds and stabilizes, then Pump Off. Pump the throttle twice [Idle to WOT two times], then advance it ¼-½" from Idle, put on my headset to kill time [in winter, I also wind and set the clock, since cold fuel evaporates slowly], then crank.

For a hot start, all I do is pump the throttle once, advance it ¼-½" from Idle, and turn the key, holding it longer until it cranks up. Cold starts are 2-3 blades, hot starts usually two or three times as long. If it's resisting the hot start, I will pump the throttle quickly while cranking and try to get her to catch. Since I overhauled the carb and the Shower of Sparks four years ago, this is now a rare event.

Edited September 13, 2017 by Hank

[Andy95W]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

 If it's resisting the hot start, I will pump the throttle quickly while cranking and try to get her to catch.

I do this as well.

[StinkBug]

10 hours ago, Andy95W said:

When my engine is hot, I don't prime at all.  And the fuel pump on a carbureted airplane doesn't do anything once the carburetor bowl is filled.

I just go mixture full rich, throttle at idle, and crank.  If it goes more than 3 or 4 blades, start to open the throttle to 1/4-1/2".  The engine (like all of them) is simply trying to find a mixture that will support combustion. The more ambient heat available, the less fuel is needed.

This is more or less what I do with my C. When it's cold I turn the pump on til it's showing fuel pressure, give it 3 pumps of the throttle and start cranking. When it's hot the procedure is the same but with only 1 or 2 pumps of the throttle. If I shut it off within the last 5 minutes then just crank with no pumping. 

I did recently upgrade to one of the little gear reduction starters that spins the engine really fast and that has made starting ridiculously easy, but it's never been difficult. 

[Hank]

Unlike your O, the M20-C is a simple machine. Don't overthink it, and don't try adding unnecessary complexity.

But it works, and it flies like a Mooney. Fast. Efficient. Simple.