M20M Garmin 1000 lean

[Filippo]

Good afternoon,

almost ready to get my future new airplane. Pre-buy in progress. I flown her yesterday to bring her to the mooney shop for the pre-buy.

i spent a lot of time, in the past couple of week, reading all different posts.

is anyone using the G1000 lean feature with the M20M Bravo ?

I have seen the G1000 manual  says "available only for not turbocharged engine, for turbocharged M20M use POH." I tried yesterday and I have noticed the garmin give you a pick and then a delta variation from pick with a minus if you keep leaning . Yesterday I tried with 30 MP and 2400 rpm and peak -30/-50 and that was giving me an TIT of about 1580-1600, CHT at around 360-370 .... if I was going more than that temperature were rising drastically and in a couple of second so I stop there, speed was around 175, altitude 5000 and fuel flow 19.3.I didn't try numbers on the sun visor, because they were recommending to set about 16 gph at 32 MP and 2400 and below 18.5 like I mentioned before, TIT was increasing very rapidly. Is there a better way or a recommended way which is not the POH at peak Temp or best power?

i'd like my engine to last so no mooney recommended numbers... at least for me....by the way no GAMI and Tempest just original equipment for now.

also shame on me I didn't take any picture of my to be soon baby ..... but promise I will post soon.

thanks

Filippo

[moxfox]

Could be the TIT probe needs to be replaced? When was the last time it was changed?  The probe on my engine is coming up on 500 hours and I'm going to change it ,it's just safe insurance to keep from running the engine to lean,giving you a false reading. I normally push between 20 to 21 GPH when I'm up high running 30 & 2400. Fuel is cheaper than a motor.

How dose the baffling look ?it's important to make sure that Air is goes down over the motor, and not  escaping around the baffling.

these are the things I would check first.

[carusoam]

I know there is a thread discussing LOP with the Bravo.  It is not very easy and high power doesn't seem possible...  but there is probably a few nuggets regarding leaning and Bravo operations by a handful of Bravo owners there...

Good luck with the new plane.

Best regards,

-a-

Edited May 23, 2017 by carusoam

[donkaye]

5 hours ago, Filippo said:

Good afternoon,

almost ready to get my future new airplane. Pre-buy in progress. I flown her yesterday to bring her to the mooney shop for the pre-buy.

i spent a lot of time, in the past couple of week, reading all different posts.

is anyone using the G1000 lean feature with the M20M Bravo ?

I have seen the G1000 manual  says "available only for not turbocharged engine, for turbocharged M20M use POH." I tried yesterday and I have noticed the garmin give you a pick and then a delta variation from pick with a minus if you keep leaning . Yesterday I tried with 30 MP and 2400 rpm and peak -30/-50 and that was giving me an TIT of about 1580-1600, CHT at around 360-370 .... if I was going more than that temperature were rising drastically and in a couple of second so I stop there, speed was around 175, altitude 5000 and fuel flow 19.3.I didn't try numbers on the sun visor, because they were recommending to set about 16 gph at 32 MP and 2400 and below 18.5 like I mentioned before, TIT was increasing very rapidly. Is there a better way or a recommended way which is not the POH at peak Temp or best power?

i'd like my engine to last so no mooney recommended numbers... at least for me....by the way no GAMI and Tempest just original equipment for now.

also shame on me I didn't take any picture of my to be soon baby ..... but promise I will post soon.

thanks

Filippo

The Bravo should be leaned by TIT.  At 75% power (29"/2400) you should lean to 125° rich of peak TIT.  That should give 18.5 gal/hr for the 1st hour and then 18 gal/hr thereafter.  Don't lean by EGT using Lean Find.  LOP operation not really recommended in my opinion on the Bravo.

[Filippo]

16 hours ago, moxfox said:

Could be the TIT probe needs to be replaced? When was the last time it was changed?  The probe on my engine is coming up on 500 hours and I'm going to change it ,it's just safe insurance to keep from running the engine to lean,giving you a false reading. I normally push between 20 to 21 GPH when I'm up high running 30 & 2400. Fuel is cheaper than a motor.

How dose the baffling look ?it's important to make sure that Air is goes down over the motor, and not  escaping around the baffling.

these are the things I would check first.

Engine has 200 hours after overhaul for sudden stop. Everything is fine compression of all cylinder are 78/80 .

i'm not a fan of ROP, too  high internal pressure and on top great risk of detonation.... but I'm listening to all recommendations.

thanks

[Filippo]

15 hours ago, donkaye said:

The Bravo should be leaned by TIT.  At 75% power (29"/2400) you should lean to 125° rich of peak TIT.  That should give 18.5 gal/hr for the 1st hour and then 18 gal/hr thereafter.  Don't lean by EGT using Lean Find.  LOP operation not really recommended in my opinion on the Bravo.

I'm monitoring TIT , which TIT you generally like?. Do you follow lycoming and Mooney recommendation with peak TIT or 1650/ 1750 max, depend on the case?

i know you are very experience and read a lot of your post...

thanks

filippo

[donkaye]

37 minutes ago, Filippo said:

 

i'm not a fan of ROP, too  high internal pressure and on top great risk of detonation.... but I'm listening to all recommendations.

thanks

Yes, I thought that I could pay for a new engine with the fuel savings of running LOP.  After a couple of exhaust repairs of $2500 each I said it wasn't worth it and went back to running ROP.

[donkaye]

1 hour ago, Filippo said:

I'm monitoring TIT , which TIT you generally like?. Do you follow lycoming and Mooney recommendation with peak TIT or 1650/ 1750 max, depend on the case?

i know you are very experience and read a lot of your post...

thanks

filippo

No way anywhere near 1750.  At most lean to 1625.

[Danb]

I've leaned my Bravo since to 1600, just got back from a 2000 mile cross county, 30/2400 1600 provides -18.5 gph, 182 @ 9000ft. Wife didn't want 02 so we flew lower.

[donkaye]

21 minutes ago, Danb said:

I've leaned my Bravo since to 1600, just got back from a 2000 mile cross county, 30/2400 1600 provides -18.5 gph, 182 @ 9000ft. Wife didn't want 02 so we flew lower.

Even at 9000 ft everyone should be on O2 (certainly the pilot) unless you're a Sherpa from Nepal.  if not, you will arrive at your destination tired and with a potential headache.  In the evening your wife won't be kidding when she says she has a headache.

[Danb]

I go on at 7-8000 wife's on when her saturation goes under 92. I stopped flying at night a few years ago.

[donkaye]

1 hour ago, Danb said:

I go on at 7-8000 wife's on when her saturation goes under 92. I stopped flying at night a few years ago.

FWIW, at night O2 from the ground up.

[Filippo]

5 hours ago, Danb said:

I've leaned my Bravo since to 1600, just got back from a 2000 mile cross county, 30/2400 1600 provides -18.5 gph, 182 @ 9000ft. Wife didn't want 02 so we flew lower.

That was very similar to what I have seen but I was at 5000 ft...

thanks

[Filippo]

6 hours ago, donkaye said:

No way anywhere near 1750.  At most lean to 1625.

Thanks, do you lean during climb or do you keep take off power? Or 2500 34MP?

thanks again

[donkaye]

3 minutes ago, Filippo said:

Thanks, do you lean during climb or do you keep take off power? Or 2500 34MP?

thanks again

You could lean to no higher than 1450, but I choose to keep it rich until reaching my final altitude.  I use full power, but back off the MP until the boost pump light goes off.

[AndyFromCB]

 

9 hours ago, Filippo said:

Thanks, do you lean during climb or do you keep take off power? Or 2500 34MP?

thanks again

You will have problems keeping at least a cylinder or two cool leaning in climb. Plus 

 

On 5/22/2017 at 10:45 PM, moxfox said:

Could be the TIT probe needs to be replaced? When was the last time it was changed?  The probe on my engine is coming up on 500 hours and I'm going to change it ,it's just safe insurance to keep from running the engine to lean,giving you a false reading. I normally push between 20 to 21 GPH when I'm up high running 30 & 2400. Fuel is cheaper than a motor.

How dose the baffling look ?it's important to make sure that Air is goes down over the motor, and not  escaping around the baffling.

these are the things I would check first.

Actually, getting it down 4gph x $6 x 2000 hours will pretty much pay for your motor, that's $48K there. I can see 21gph running 34/2400, but not 30/2400. That's closer to 17gph territory at 1650TIT. You'd have to eat a lot of exhaust parts to justify the fuel wasted.  The turbos and cylinders don't care as long you keep the heads cool enough and the exhaust can be more or less made new for $4K by Acorn at 1000 hours. That's how I run my Turbo 206.

[donkaye]

1 hour ago, AndyFromCB said:

 

You will have problems keeping at least a cylinder or two cool leaning in climb. Plus 

 

Actually, getting it down 4gph x $6 x 2000 hours will pretty much pay for your motor, that's $48K there. I can see 21gph running 34/2400, but not 30/2400. That's closer to 17gph territory at 1650TIT. You'd have to eat a lot of exhaust parts to justify the fuel wasted.  The turbos and cylinders don't care as long you keep the heads cool enough and the exhaust can be more or less made new for $4K by Acorn at 1000 hours. That's how I run my Turbo 206.

All I can say is "be my guest".  Unless you have the TIO540AF1B engine, it's just not the same.  I run my engine very cool and I've had to overhaul 2 cylinders for leaking intake valve guides for $9,000, the turbo and waste gate for another $5,000, plus the exhaust cracks that have grounded the plane for weeks while trying to get them repaired.  In the final analysis neither I nor Shirley like the occasional "miss" and "rough"sound of the engine while running LOP (GAMi spread is .5).  And, yes, I've taken the APS course both in person and online.

[AndyFromCB]

8 minutes ago, donkaye said:

All I can say is "be my guest".  Unless you have the TIO540AF1B engine, it's just not the same.  I run my engine very cool and I've had to overhaul 2 cylinders for leaking intake valve guides for $9,000, the turbo and waste gate for another $5,000, plus the exhaust cracks that have grounded the plane for weeks while trying to get them repaired.  In the final analysis neither I nor Shirley like the occasional "miss" and "rough"sound of the engine while running LOP (GAMi spread is .5).  And, yes, I've taken the APS course both in person and online.

To each their own, but I'd start sourcing your overhaul shops a bit more. $9K for two cylinders is outrageous, more like $3K total with R&R (they are $2500 brand new), Acorn or the outfit in MN will turn an exhaust around in a few days, and IIRC I got my turbo overhauled for $1200. 

How again was is it $9K to overhaul two cylinders? That's about 1/3 of what I paid to have a TIO540AF1B totally overhauled with all new cylinder parts other than keeping the old jugs (so new pistons, valves, springs, etc).

[donkaye]

2 hours ago, AndyFromCB said:

To each their own, but I'd start sourcing your overhaul shops a bit more. $9K for two cylinders is outrageous, more like $3K total with R&R (they are $2500 brand new), Acorn or the outfit in MN will turn an exhaust around in a few days, and IIRC I got my turbo overhauled for $1200. 

How again was is it $9K to overhaul two cylinders? That's about 1/3 of what I paid to have a TIO540AF1B totally overhauled with all new cylinder parts other than keeping the old jugs (so new pistons, valves, springs, etc).

Yes, I just checked the invoice and it was about 4K for 2 cylinders and turbocharger and waste gate and controllers.