Dear Philly Approach

[Danb]

The thing to realize is with Philly  approach you have to fly north in order to go south,it's in the book, there currently setting up a program for us to go south before going north, it's called efficiency, plus you get an extra 30 minutes of flight time. I recently got OOD to go to Kdet, I'm assuming there trying the go east young man then you can go west towards your destination. Common sense, Is it still April 1st?

 

[peevee]

What a bunch of whiners.

[Marauder]

Here's a layout of the philly airspace. I've had similar  routing discussions with the automation and procedures supervisor at Philly TRACON with some pretty good success in my favor. I fly the TK502/504 route due to icing in the winter and they always want to route me on the higher airways. After  some negotiating he was able to go into the computer system and change the default routing from MXE to the TK routes when  an altitude filing of less than 5000 feet comes in. 
 The reason they bring you through MXE is they are trying to keep you solely in their airspace as you transition through. Normal routing to LDJ from the west would seem to be MRB-PTW-SBJ but doing that puts you into Harrisburg for a bit then philly then reading and back to philly. Due to a  letter of agreement between Potomac and philly, MXE is the agreed upon handoff fix to alleviate working  you through the other sectors.
Don't get me started about the interaction between  Maguire and New York approach. 
Jeff
 

Thanks for the explanation. Makes sense and explains why Philly tells me they need to negotiate with Harrisburg when I try to fly V170.

Any idea why Reading as a Class D has an approach frequency?


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[Marauder]

What a bunch of whiners.

We do that well.


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[Garryowen]

11 minutes ago, Marauder said:

Any idea why Reading as a Class D has an approach frequency?

They justify Reading approach because of the number of practice IFR operations they receive from the training units at Ft Indiantown Gap as well as, to a small extent, the transient aircraft going between ABE and MDT appch.

A typical training period from the Gap will have 5-10 helicopters flying what we call the Iron Triangle (CXY, LNS, RDG). With two students each per aircraft doing on average 2-3 approaches at a time, the numbers add up quick for a small airport like RDG. With no overlying airspace (Class C or TRSA) they easily make a case for having their own appch. Job security in a way for them. 

LNS is covered by harrisburg so they get to stay a 'slow' contract tower. 

[peevee]

9 minutes ago, Garryowen said:

 Job security in a way for them. 

 

KRDG is a level 6 and very unlikely an up/down. Approach services are probably provided by a larger nearby tracon. A VFR level 6 tower has no job security at this point.

It might just be a position at philly tracon. Who knows. Find someone that actually knows something about the system and ask them.

 

[Garryowen]

Approach and Tower sit next to each other in the cab at RDG. If you listen closely you can sometimes here them BS'ing in the back ground right after they hand you off. Better yet, I went to visit and saw it first hand. They have their own one station TRACON. Right, wrong, indifferent? That's just the way it is. First world problems I guess.

[SethKeefer]

I may be able to shed a little light on your PHL plight, though I am not a controller I flew in and out frequently and met a few facility rated controllers there.  PHL is the busiest primary class B airport in the NE, busier than JFK, LGA, EWR, BOS, DCA, IAD.  Normally that is not a big deal, you keep your arriving jet traffic at 12-13k until the downwind then idle descent from there, and departures go out right underneath at 10k until they are clear of the arrival corridors.  Except in PHL...due to NYC airspace right next door, the NYC arrivals from the west and southwest are coming over just above PHL airspace, so PHL has everything coming in to their 4 arrival gates down low at 8,000 to get underneath the NYC arrivals AND the PHL departures which are at 10,000, and if PHL is departing east the departing traffic has to cross the arrival corridors above (if going westbound), especially jammed is the north sector with BUNTS to the NW and I think its SPUDS to the NE.

Long story short, they have to use more of their low altitude airspace for the primary airport than a class B airport that is all on its own, like CLT or ATL, you would never have jet traffic 30miles out at 8,000ft down to 6,000 unless they were on a long final.

[peevee]

16 minutes ago, Garryowen said:

Approach and Tower sit next to each other in the cab at RDG.

No, they don't.

Even if that facility provides the radar service the radar room is not in the tower cab. It's down below. Further illustrating my point that the information spread around here is dubious at best.

[201er]

11 minutes ago, SethKeefer said:

I may be able to shed a little light on your PHL plight, though I am not a controller I flew in and out frequently and met a few facility rated controllers there.  PHL is the busiest primary class B airport in the NE, busier than JFK, LGA, EWR, BOS, DCA, IAD.  Normally that is not a big deal, you keep your arriving jet traffic at 12-13k until the downwind then idle descent from there, and departures go out right underneath at 10k until they are clear of the arrival corridors.  Except in PHL...due to NYC airspace right next door, the NYC arrivals from the west and southwest are coming over just above PHL airspace, so PHL has everything coming in to their 4 arrival gates down low at 8,000 to get underneath the NYC arrivals AND the PHL departures which are at 10,000, and if PHL is departing east the departing traffic has to cross the arrival corridors above (if going westbound), especially jammed is the north sector with BUNTS to the NW and I think its SPUDS to the NE.

Long story short, they have to use more of their low altitude airspace for the primary airport than a class B airport that is all on its own, like CLT or ATL, you would never have jet traffic 30miles out at 8,000ft down to 6,000 unless they were on a long final.

Well that explains why they had me descend to 5 and 4000 so far out from my destination. What it doesn't explain is why they didn't let me pass well north of their Bravo and instead insisted on making me divert south into their Bravo to cross their sacred Modena. Not only did they take me from not so busy low altitude airspace and put me into busy airspace, they also had to spend more time talking to me and working with me because of the longer routing. Where's the sense?

[peevee]

14 minutes ago, 201er said:

 why they didn't let me pass well north of their Bravo and instead insisted on making me divert south into their Bravo to cross their sacred Modena.

it was definitely personal and they had no reason other than they were bored and wanted to ruin your day by adding ten minutes to your flight. It's the only logical answer I'm sure.

Instead of crying about it why don't you.... maybe... call the facility and ask. I'm sure they'll explain it to you. Or just keep complaining, that works too.

[Mooneymite]

17 minutes ago, peevee said:

Further illustrating my point that the information spread around here is dubious at best.

The information spread on MS is dubious?  

[Chris from PA]

19 hours ago, dlthig said:

Funky cold...

I see what you did there.

[Marauder]

it was definitely personal and they had no reason other than they were bored and wanted to ruin your day by adding ten minutes to your flight. It's the only logical answer I'm sure.
Instead of crying about it why don't you.... maybe... call the facility and ask. I'm sure they'll explain it to you. Or just keep complaining, that works too.

Which ATC facility do you work for? Maybe we can arrange a steady stream of Mooneys with similar tail numbers to come through your sector all asking for pop up IFR clearances.

Mike -- I would call them. I spoke to them once about the handoffs between them and Dover.


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[Garryowen]

6 hours ago, peevee said:

No, they don't.

Within eyesight/earshot of each other. Would you believe that? I know you think most controllers like to hold hands and sing kumbaya but you're right, they are not literally next to each other like you are picturing. 

Edited April 4, 2017 by Garryowen
Pronoun use

[peevee]

6 minutes ago, Garryowen said:

Within eyesight/earshot of each other. Would you believe that? I know most controllers like to hold hands and sing kumbaya but you're right, they are not literally next to each other like you are picturing. 

they're not even in the same room. In the case of RDG I would place a hefty bet on them not even being in the same building. I do not believe there are any level 6 up/down facilities and being surrounded by level 12 tracons one of them probably owns it. Who knows. Call and ask.

Which, speaking of, the reason they're called up downs in the first place is that the UP is the tower cab, and the DOWN in the radar room. The radar room is below the cab somewhere. You know, where it's dark.

What you're likely hearing is crosstalk in whatever tracon is providing that service. The tower cab might have a dbrite or whatever the new version of that is, but that's about the only radar they'd have in the cab. Even then what they can use it for seems pretty limited.

[carusoam]

Gentlemen,

Please Keep in mind...

There are controllers that fly Mooneys.  They are part of the MS community. There are only a few.  We need their input.

being nice to everyone can be tough some times, but everyone has something to offer.

 

Typed openly with positive Spirit, kumbaya... 

 

my last IFR flight went East towards a hurricane to go west towards Chicago, escaping the hurricane...

I would have liked to know how to plan that flight a hair better.

Best regards,

-a-

Edited April 4, 2017 by carusoam

[Shadrach]

On 4/3/2017 at 1:33 PM, 201er said:

Dear Philly Approach, what is with your complete and total obsession with sending anyone and everyone to Modena regardless of where they are going and where they are coming from?

So do they use the correct Italian pronunciation as in the birth place of Ferrari or are they more Tone Loc as in funky cold?

[carusoam]

Wrong Modena...

The Funky but not cold Modena... Home of Enzo Ferrari.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modena

I've had this one waiting since yesterday.

pronunciation in Italy is more like MOdinna... as apposed to ModEna.

I did my best...

Best regards,

-a-

Edited April 4, 2017 by carusoam

[Garryowen]

 

On April 4, 2017 at 11:23 AM, peevee said:

 

On April 4, 2017 at 11:05 AM, Garryowen said:

Approach and Tower sit next to each other in the cab at RDG.

No, they don't.

Even if that facility provides the radar service the radar room is not in the tower cab. It's down below. Further illustrating my point that the information spread around here is dubious at best.

 

Stopped in at RDG this afternoon for dinner. Highly recommend the wings at the terminal if you ever have a chance. I had the standard hot, but my partner had a mix of the garlic and old bay. Nice place for a quick bite or even to spend some time lounging around watching things fly. It was packed with locals so that's always a good sign for an airport restaurant. 

I thought since we were there we should head over to the tower to make sure I'm not completely messed up with how they are set up. Everyone was new since the last time I was in ten years ago but everyone was super friendly and nice just like I remembered. We were there right after shift change so we had plenty of folks eager to show us around. 

I learned a couple of things. One, they are busier than Harrisburg as measured by the number of operations. That surprised me since MDT has a TRSA. That is indeed the reason they have been able to save that approach control position over the years.  Second, the approach control position in the tower came about because of a CFIT accident back in the 70's. Apparently a plane was being vectored in weather, but because of the 'bowl' that RDG sits in, radar contact was lost at a critical time and the plane hit the mountain (hill to you westerners). As a result, radar was added. The bowl of terrain is pretty much the outline of the airspace listed previously in this post. The last little piece of trivia we learned was that in order to not require an elevator, the tower's staircase was built with one less step than the maximum allowed by elevator law. I'll have to look that one up because she might have been pulling my leg.

For some reason they couldn't explain, I assume since radar was added after the tower was built, Approach and Local do sit/stand next to each other. One usually handles just the approach freq and the other does both tower and ground. For our visit, they had a trainee doing ground and running clearance strips. The goal is for everyone to be fully qualified on all of the positions. They said it helps with scheduling. 

Hopefully this adds some value to our discussion, but keep in mind, I'm just a pilot, not an air traffic controller. 

Caption: Shift change at RDG tower. APPCH on the left ground and local on the right. 

[Hank]

3 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

Dear London Centre, why can i always go west bound at FL070 but if i want to go east bound you want me out of the TMA?  Or dear Eurocontrol, why wont you let me route IFR up the east coast of my country.  

"Just the the way it is init mate". Would be the answer.   Sometimes swimming uphill is something you just have to do.

  

At least London lets you into their airspace . . . The only times I've been inside the Atlanta Bravo has been in the back of a Delta jet, or I've been driving my car . . . . .

[Marauder]

 
Stopped in at RDG this afternoon for dinner. Highly recommend the wings at the terminal if you ever have a chance. I had the standard hot, but my partner had a mix of the garlic and old bay. Nice place for a quick bite or even to spend some time lounging around watching things fly. It was packed with locals so that's always a good sign for an airport restaurant. 
I thought since we were there we should head over to the tower to make sure I'm not completely messed up with how they are set up. Everyone was new since the last time I was in ten years ago but everyone was super friendly and nice just like I remembered. We were there right after shift change so we had plenty of folks eager to show us around. 
I learned a couple of things. One, they are busier than Harrisburg as measured by the number of operations. That surprised me since MDT has a TRSA. That is indeed the reason they have been able to save that approach control position over the years.  Second, the approach control position in the tower came about because of a CFIT accident back in the 70's. Apparently a plane was being vectored in weather, but because of the 'bowl' that RDG sits in, radar contact was lost at a critical time and the plane hit the mountain (hill to you westerners). As a result, radar was added. The bowl of terrain is pretty much the outline of the airspace listed previously in this post. The last little piece of trivia we learned was that in order to not require an elevator, the tower's staircase was built with one less step than the maximum allowed by elevator law. I'll have to look that one up because she might have been pulling my leg.
For some reason they couldn't explain, I assume since radar was added after the tower was built, Approach and Local do sit/stand next to each other. One usually handles just the approach freq and the other does both tower and ground. For our visit, they had a trainee doing ground and running clearance strips. The goal is for everyone to be fully qualified on all of the positions. They said it helps with scheduling. 
Hopefully this adds some value to our discussion, but keep in mind, I'm just a pilot, not an air traffic controller. 
Caption: Shift change at RDG tower. APPCH on the left ground and local on the right. 

Thanks for the detailed right up. I speak to Reading Approach every time I come back from WNY. I always thought it was weird that they had an approach controller for a Class D but the map posted makes sense and that cooridor they sit in between Harrisburg and Philly is pretty active.


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[peevee]

52 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

Thanks for the detailed right up. I speak to Reading Approach every time I come back from WNY. I always thought it was weird that they had an approach controller for a Class D but the map posted makes sense and that cooridor they sit in between Harrisburg and Philly is pretty active.


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if thats actually an approach position and not a dbrite then it's one of I don't know how many tracabs in operation. There are probably more flying m22's than tracabs.

[Garryowen]

19 minutes ago, peevee said:

if thats actually an approach position and not a dbrite then it's one of I don't know how many tracabs in operation. There are probably more flying m22's than tracabs.

Trac cab is what they called it. I couldn't remember what it was. Thanks. Can't say I've heard of any others around to be honest. Most every tower in our area has debrite feed from a nearby TRACON. I'm always learning so I appreciate your perspective. 

[bradp]

Is Roanoke VA approach a trac cab or an upstairs downstairs?