Aux tanks Install - Bravo

[TLSDriver]

I have been unable to find a competeive quote on adding aux tanks to a Bravo.

Can anyone take a stab at what a fair price would be?  

 

Thanks

 

David

[GeorgePerry]

Might not be exactly what your looking for but check out this link.

http://www.monroyaero.com/lrupgd.html

[TLSDriver]

That helps!

It looks like the majority of the cost is in the labor and I am wondering if that will vary much from shop to shop.

I didnt know if this is complicated process.  If not my local A+P could probaly do it but I didn't want to be the guinea pig!

 

David

[GeorgePerry]

I believe there's an STC involved...  Give Monroy a call I'm sure they can explain the details.

[TLSDriver]

Will do!  

 

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

 

David

[kortopates]

At $3K for the kit plus 60 hrs for labor with additional for sealing off the speed brakes area I imagine you'll be looking at north of $8K - depending on shop rates. If your existing sealant in your main tanks now isn't in good shape that could also be a significant added cost.

As one that has them, be sure to consider the downsides before you commit. They came on my 252 but I would not recommend them. On the plus side, they have proven helpful when wanting to fly long legs such as half way across the country, or from Socal to Cabo and sometimes just being able to add an extra 10 gals above normal full when flying in Mexico where alternates can easily be over an hour away has been helpful. But that is very seldom (for me) and quite frankly I can only fill up the long range tanks if I am flying solo. Even with my supermodel wife and co-pilot, we'll be over gross if we're both going with more than full mains. I really don't relish 6+ hour legs anyway, nor peeing in bottle, and I rarely go anywhere alone where I could use them even if I wanted too. Run your WT&Bal numbers, but I bet you'll find the majority of their utility is limited to a solo flying pilot - which may well hold appeal to you.

There are some additional more suttle downsides to consider. With a fuel analyzer or JPI EDM like I have, you'll be able to accurately know how much total fuel you have on board but never exactly what you have on each side. It will be forever challenging to accurately tell how much fuel you have left in your tanks except right after you filled the mains to "Full" - and that comes with a caveat.  You will no longer be able to just fill or top off a main tank and know pricesly what you have unless you wait till you have less than 15-18 gals on a side, or you'll still have some unknown amount of fuel in the long range tank adding to your main "full" volume (since fuel added to the main tanks will drain into LR tanks, with the LR tanks not becoming entirely dry till you are below 15-18 gals on a side). More often you'll be putting in a meaured number of gallons based on your "fuel calculations" tracking gals remaining per side  - unless you do most of your flying solo. Because of these, we are very careful wth our fuel calculations as I am sure you will be too if you go this route. I also use a dip-stick on the LR tanks for a rough measurement, but of course your fuel gauges only indicate whats in your mains - and thus will tend to show less than what yo uhave till the LR tanks are empty. Lastly, it could be a long time off, but in addition to your initial cost to install them consider the eventual much costlier reseal cost down the road if the added utility will be worth the cost to you along with the loss in simplicity in avoiding overfilling your tanks when your intention is to just fill the Main.  

[TLSDriver]

That was a very thoughtful response.  You made some points that I had not considered.  Keep in mind that the TLS is much more thirsty then your 252.

I had three reasons why I thought I should do it:

1) With fuel prices being what they are I figured I could leave my home airport topped and therefore purchase less away, unless the prices were better and then I would flip-flop. 

2) I thought that it would add to re-sale of the plane and I would get at least some of the money back when I sell it.

3) If I did avoid an extra fuel stop on a longer trip it would save time and money.   I think I read somewhere that the average stop takes an hour or so.  Maybe some wear and tear on the engine as well.

That being said you bring up an excellant point about typical trips.  80% of mine are 500 miles or less.  So the extra gas wasn't needed.  

Maybe I should re-think the $7,500 to $10,000 unless I can better justify the mission.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: TLSDriver

That was a very thoughtful response.  You made some points that I had not considered.  Keep in mind that the TLS is much more thirsty then your 252.

I had three reasons why I thought I should do it:

1) With fuel prices being what they are I figured I could leave my home airport topped and therefore purchase less away, unless the prices were better and then I would flip-flop. 

2) I thought that it would add to re-sale of the plane and I would get at least some of the money back when I sell it.

3) If I did avoid an extra fuel stop on a longer trip it would save time and money.   I think I read somewhere that the average stop takes an hour or so.  Maybe some wear and tear on the engine as well.

That being said you bring up an excellant point about typical trips.  80% of mine are 500 miles or less.  So the extra gas wasn't needed.  

Maybe I should re-think the $7,500 to $10,000 unless I can better justify the mission.

[GeorgePerry]

Quote: TLSDriver

That was a very thoughtful response.  You made some points that I had not considered.  Keep in mind that the TLS is much more thirsty then your 252.

Maybe I should re-think the $7,500 to $10,000 unless I can better justify the mission.

[KLRDMD]

Quote: GeorgePerry

[blacknchrome]

I say go for the install as one who owns a Bravo with 118g tanks.  They add great utility to the airframe.  You now have so many more options, if you want, because of carrying a lot more fuel.  Yes, you can 'tanker' cheaper fuel, which may add up over enough trips.  You have the ability to have a much longer reserve fuel supply if you need to divert.  If you get up at altitude and like the ride/strong tailwind/or are on top of a thick layer/bad weather, you can just keep going past your first stop without having to worry about fuel.  You are not going to fly 5 hours every trip just because you have the gas - but if you want to, you can, and safely.  It does add resale value I believe.  You may not get the entire investment out, but you will get some - or at least it tips a comparison in your favor that you may sell your airplane and another plane without them may not sell at all.  Fuel stops take up so much time.

I've been told by what I believe are some of the experts that the Bravo engine does not respond well to LOP operations.  It was worded to me as strongly as don't even try.  There have been a few examples of owners trying so hard to run LOP that they spent thousands in repairs.  Ask Maxwell about it sometime or the guys at All American.  Honestly, in an aircraft of that price range, with a $64,000+ engine, why take a risk of frying something to save a few gallons per hour.  Fuel is relatively cheap to a new TSIO-540.     

[KLRDMD]

Quote: blacknchrome

I've been told by what I believe are some of the experts that the Bravo engine does not respond well to LOP operations.  It was worded to me as strongly as don't even try.  There have been a few examples of owners trying so hard to run LOP that they spent thousands in repairs.  Ask Maxwell about it sometime or the guys at All American.  Honestly, in an aircraft of that price range, with a $64,000+ engine, why take a risk of frying something to save a few gallons per hour.  Fuel is relatively cheap to a new TSIO-540.     

[GeorgePerry]

Lots of mixed emotions on LOP.  I'm a fan of LOP but others aren't.  Link to a good article by Bob Kromer on cruise power settings.  I've had positive experiences with GAMI's / LOP in turbo Mooneys but you might want to talk with the expert (George Braly) at GAMI before giviing it a try

http://www.mooneypilots.com/mapalog/cruisepower.html

[kortopates]

Tankering around fuel is generally not such a good thing to do because it robs the performance we'd enjoy flying lighter. But even if tankering saved you $1 a gal, you'd have go through 8, 9 or 10,000 gallons before you got your ROI - that's a lot of years of gas even in the thirstier Bravo.

Regarding resale value, check out any of the MapaLog market articles by Jimmy Garrison, but I'll think you find long range tanks have little if any add-on value. I am sure someone here can look it up what he said about them specifically for the Bravo if you don't get them. When I got my K, I did consider it a plus at the time but wasn't interested in paying more for them. But they could also work against you in resale value if the quality of the sealant was in any way questionable - such as holding onto the plane for long time and having any signs of weeping at time of sale. But a good sealant job should last longer than 20+ years, yet they don't always; but I personally wouldn't worry about that. But I wouldn't expect much liklihood to recoup much if any of the cost either. $10K on avionics, interior or paint would have much greater resale value - but not suggesting your Bravo is in need of any of those!

I too buy a lot of gas away from my home field, but I pretty much look at the savings as partially subsidizing the cost to make the gas trip and an excuse to make a IFR currency flight or the like. Your trip length sounds pretty average and I think you'll find most flying companions won't want to stay up beyond 3 hours anyway. Those supermodels that seem so common flying in Mooneys have such small bladders!

Enjoy your Bravo!

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: blacknchrome

I've been told by what I believe are some of the experts that the Bravo engine does not respond well to LOP operations.  It was worded to me as strongly as don't even try.  There have been a few examples of owners trying so hard to run LOP that they spent thousands in repairs.  Ask Maxwell about it sometime or the guys at All American.  Honestly, in an aircraft of that price range, with a $64,000+ engine, why take a risk of frying something to save a few gallons per hour.  Fuel is relatively cheap to a new TSIO-540.     

[TLSDriver]

The Bravo does have GAMI's installed.  (I am closing in about 10 days.)

Talk about the classic tug-of-war. Saving a few gallon per hour and running cooler seems great if you can pull it off.  An early trip to the engine rebuilder would ruin my day, however.

Is there an easy way to find out if the engine was happy at LOP?  A JPI EDM 700 is installed.  I read the link that that was above this post and that logic seemed sound.  To paraphrase: Run 50 degrees rich of peek and sleep well.  But the boys at GAMI coudn't disagree more.

It almost feels like a religious war.  You are for LOP or your not.  Is there any gray area here?

I am a brand new member so if I should start a new thread please let me know.  Otherwise I would love to learn all I can!

 

[KLRDMD]

Quote: TLSDriver

Is there an easy way to find out if the engine was happy at LOP?  To paraphrase: Run 50 degrees rich of peek and sleep well.  But the boys at GAMI coudn't disagree more.

[MooneyMitch]

"Your trip length sounds pretty average and I think you'll find most flying companions won't want to stay up beyond 3 hours anyway. Those supermodels that seem so common flying in Mooneys have such small bladders!"..............unless she has a LadyJane!!!!

[GeorgePerry]

Quote: TLSDriver

The Bravo does have GAMI's installed.  (I am closing in about 10 days.)

Talk about the classic tug-of-war. Saving a few gallon per hour and running cooler seems great if you can pull it off.  An early trip to the engine rebuilder would ruin my day, however.

Is there an easy way to find out if the engine was happy at LOP?  A JPI EDM 700 is installed.  I read the link that that was above this post and that logic seemed sound.  To paraphrase: Run 50 degrees rich of peek and sleep well.  But the boys at GAMI coudn't disagree more.

It almost feels like a religious war.  You are for LOP or your not.  Is there any gray area here?

I am a brand new member so if I should start a new thread please let me know.  Otherwise I would love to learn all I can!

 

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: GeorgePerry

If you believe the GAMI guys (and I do) your TIT's and CHT's will run cooler LOP.  BUT DON'T experiment.  If you want to give it a try, call GAMI and get their recommendations for how to do it safely.

\

[Bob]

Mitch,

This subject was quiet for a while, but you couldn't "hold it" in any longer, could you?

[GeorgePerry]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

50 ROP and 50 LOP is the same temperature.  ICP and CHT are lower when LOP.

Heat is a huge factor, but PRESSURE is also.

[Piloto]

No sense on using a TLS for 200nm trips. You can do those on a C172 with no that much difference in time. Where a TLS stand out is on 1000nm trips at a reasonable speed/time. But to do 1000nm at the full rated speed with reserves you need the extra fuel. This is the same situation with the Rocket 300hp conversion. Also the extended tanks allows the plane to reach far away destinantions with no AVGAS available for the return trip like Bermuda. Many in Europe get them for this or the fuel at destination is too expensive. These tanks widen the mission profile more than any of the other mods that cost much more like the $40k TKS that takes 100 pounds of payload and 6kts penalty all the time. Or the 100 pounds/$20K A/C that is only useful when taxing in the summer. Or an Aspen $10K display were it does nothing to the mission profile or passenger comfort. As for added value like for any other airplane added range has a higher resale value. Woud you buy a TLS with less fuel capability than 90 gallons even if you only do 200nm trips? Have you noticed that all the new models (Beech, Piper, Cessna, Cirrus, Mooney, Boeing, Airbus) all have more fuel/range than previous models. That's because range sells.

Jose

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: GeorgePerry

 The pressure part I didn't want to get into b/c that relates directly to MP settings.

[KLRDMD]

Quote: GeorgePerry