Garmin G5 Review

[bradp]

12 hours ago, Marauder said:

 

Byron -- the shop at Donegal Springs, PA is the shop that did my install and I am certain they wouldn't have installed it unless it met the regs. I spent a lot of time with them on the stand-by AI situation since I was removing my vacuum system. My guess is this is a purely extra AI in the panel. 

Your friend-  it's the same person who emailed me about the experimental G5 going in at Donegal Springs, then part of the approval was that it was allowed to tie into the Pitot Static system, but none of the original instruments were allowed to have been removed.  The experimental G5 was also not allowed to drive any existing system.  

[kortopates]

On 6/17/2017 at 3:27 PM, hramirez8 said:

 

Downside to the ESI-500 is that it is only std by for Attitude.


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??? - Not true. This is what it was designed for and is being installed as the sole back up instrument to support an EFIS panel (i.e. without any other pitot-static instruments). The base unit covers them all but heading, but heading is available too with the $1500 magnetometer option which I didn't get so the unit displays Track while the compass provides heading.  See the TSO approvals in the specifications http://www.l3aviationproducts.com/products/esi-500/#1441874218832-398800e3-835ed211-c94673d5-f72d Plus with the Navigation option I have a second VOR/LOC/ILS/GPS navigation. 

[hramirez8]

??? - Not true. This is what it was designed for and is being installed as the sole back up instrument to support an EFIS panel (i.e. without any other pitot-static instruments). The base unit covers them all but heading, but heading is available too with the $1500 magnetometer option which I didn't get so the unit displays Track while the compass provides heading.  See the TSO approvals in the specifications http://www.l3aviationproducts.com/products/esi-500/#1441874218832-398800e3-835ed211-c94673d5-f72d Plus with the Navigation option I have a second VOR/LOC/ILS/GPS navigation. 

Korto, it is correct. With the ESI you do get airspeed, altitude, nav, SV and track heading... however, the only function for which it can be a legal stand by for is Attitude. You still have to have stand by airspeed and altitude indicators. With the sai 340 you can remove all three (attitude, airspeed and altimeter) since it is legal as stand by for all three. Just in case and to confirm I will call L3 tomorrow to verify what their stc is valid for.... thanks for input!


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[Marauder]

??? - Not true. This is what it was designed for and is being installed as the sole back up instrument to support an EFIS panel (i.e. without any other pitot-static instruments). The base unit covers them all but heading, but heading is available too with the $1500 magnetometer option which I didn't get so the unit displays Track while the compass provides heading.  See the TSO approvals in the specifications http://www.l3aviationproducts.com/products/esi-500/#1441874218832-398800e3-835ed211-c94673d5-f72d Plus with the Navigation option I have a second VOR/LOC/ILS/GPS navigation. 

Paul - have ever looked into pulling the heading off of the magnetometer for the glass panel?


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[kortopates]

4 minutes ago, hramirez8 said:

 

Korto, it is correct. With the ESI you do get airspeed, altitude, nav, SV and track heading... however, the only function for which it can be a legal stand by for is Attitude. You still have to have stand by airspeed and altitude indicators. With the sai 340 you can remove all three (attitude, airspeed and altimeter) since it is legal as stand by for all three. Just in case and to confirm I will call L3 tomorrow to verify what their stc is valid for.... thanks for input!


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Please do check with them and let us know what they tell you, because they show they meed the TSO's for all the pitot-static instruments which would not make sense if it wasn't approved nor would we be able to use it as a sole source stand by; which it is commonly being installed as. 

Edited June 18, 2017 by kortopates

[kortopates]

Just now, Marauder said:

 

Paul - have ever looked into pulling the heading off of the magnetometer for the glass panel?


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No, I haven't looked into whether or not the G500 magnetometer is compatible with the ESI-500 inputs. That's an interesting thought. 

In actuality though, I am always looking at my GPS TRK versus DTK on approaches, more so than a CDI, so having TRK there may prove more valuable to me anyway. But the jury is still out on that for awhile.

[Marauder]

Korto, it is correct. With the ESI you do get airspeed, altitude, nav, SV and track heading... however, the only function for which it can be a legal stand by for is Attitude. You still have to have stand by airspeed and altitude indicators. With the sai 340 you can remove all three (attitude, airspeed and altimeter) since it is legal as stand by for all three. Just in case and to confirm I will call L3 tomorrow to verify what their stc is valid for.... thanks for input!


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Jim Keeth from L-3 was on this site and walked us through the TSO (not a an STC). I'm pretty sure you will find Paul is correct.

The separate battery backup is what is required by the Aspen STC (probable the same for the Garmin G500) to allow a electronic device to act as a backup. The alternative is to keep the vacuum AI.


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[Marauder]

No, I haven't looked into whether or not the G500 magnetometer is compatible with the ESI-500 inputs. That's an interesting thought. 

In actuality though, I am always looking at my GPS TRK versus DTK on approaches, more so than a CDI, so having TRK there may prove more valuable to me anyway. But the jury is still out on that for awhile.

 

That's how my ESI-500 is wired. I get the magnetometer feed from the PFD. With an Aspen 2000, I could in theory do a throw over switch to allow the second magnetometer from the MFD to feed it as well. Or heaven's forbid, actually look at the compass.

 

 

 

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[kortopates]

Just now, Marauder said:

That's how my ESI-500 is wired. I get the magnetometer feed from the PFD. With an Aspen 2000, I could in theory do a throw over switch to allow the second magnetometer from the MFD to feed it as well. Or heaven's forbid, actually look at the compass.

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Good to know! I'll have to check into that. Thanks! 

[hramirez8]

Jim Keeth from L-3 was on this site and walked us through the TSO (not a an STC). I'm pretty sure you will find Paul is correct.

The separate battery backup is what is required by the Aspen STC (probable the same for the Garmin G500) to allow a electronic device to act as a backup. The alternative is to keep the vacuum AI.


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Well, you are correct, and Paul as well. I talked to Jim today and he very kindly confirmed The ESI-500 is stand by for all steam gauges. Thanks all for the help. Now I can decide.


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[Marauder]

Well, you are correct, and Paul as well. I talked to Jim today and he very kindly confirmed The ESI-500 is stand by for all steam gauges. Thanks all for the help. Now I can decide.


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Glad to hear this. Would have had a cow if the unit wasn't! I have seen the Sandia and ESI-500 side by side. The ESI display is unbelievably crisp. It has a number of features that can be added, including Nav functions. It is pricey though.


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[hramirez8]

Glad to hear this. Would have had a cow if the unit wasn't! I have seen the Sandia and ESI-500 side by side. The ESI display is unbelievably crisp. It has a number of features that can be added, including Nav functions. It is pricey though.


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How does it compare with the Sandia display? Since i will probably have to to a field approval, i was leaning towards the sandia unit. Half the price... and its only a stand by ....


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[kortopates]

15 minutes ago, hramirez8 said:

How does it compare with the Sandia display? Since i will probably have to to a field approval, i was leaning towards the sandia unit. Half the price... and its only a stand by ....

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I was originally headed the Sandia 340 unit myself - till they came out with the ESI-500 after the Genesis. With the full stand by capabilities and the added Nav capabilities I thought it was it was worth as expensive as it was so that I could drop an extra OBS-CDI display for Nav backup if I lost my G500. Plus at the time, Sandia was having issues with early units and they were having to go back to the factory for firmware update which was giving me cold feet. Although that shouldn't be an issue now. But with the ESI-500, its just my G500 which displays both GPS and VOR/LOC inputs and the ESI-500 with switch to enable displaying Nav inputs from GPS#1 or GPS #2 (which are GTN750 & 650) for instruments. Very clean panel. And I still have the option of adding Syn Vis to the ESI-500. Truthfully, I have backup Nav on the GPS's directly, but the the GPS displays don't provide GS without an external CDI, hence the desire for a backup nav display. 

[82Mike]

So is how they install the G5 with the Aspen(s) marking the Aspen backup and the G5 primary?  This is what my avionic shop is telling me.  I will have 3 aspens, a JPI900 and the G5 and my shop says I won't need my vacuum anymore.  My goal is no steam guages at all (no 6 pack or power).  Is this feasible the way he is telling me?

 

Thanks!

 

Mike

[Marauder]

So is how they install the G5 with the Aspen(s) marking the Aspen backup and the G5 primary?  This is what my avionic shop is telling me.  I will have 3 aspens, a JPI900 and the G5 and my shop says I won't need my vacuum anymore.  My goal is no steam guages at all (no 6 pack or power).  Is this feasible the way he is telling me?
 
Thanks!
 
Mike

Mike,

I have an Aspen 2000 and my shop told me clearly that the G5 was not an option in any configuration of Aspen or G500 system.

Trek Lawler from Garmin said it was not approved as a backup for either an Aspen or G500.

That said, it appears that some have been able to get a field approval from the local FSDO. I would want to see an actual signoff from the FSDO before I committed.


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[82Mike]

Thanks for the response it concerns me also as it is more to use the L3 product but I would rather get it correct first time.

 

thank you!

[82Mike]

Well I figured it out.  They take my single tube Aspen out first.  Install the G5 it is now primary this is work order number 1.  So I have a vacuum attitude, slip turn, altimeter and AS.  This is legal IFR just no glass.  Then they open ticket number 2 and put in the 3 tube Aspen with battery back up as the back up to the G5.  This is legal and ok according to my shop.  I have seen it now in 5 planes.  I like the idea of not spending the extra $ on the ESi500 as it does nothing for me.  The Aspen drives my AP either way and the ESI does not do that so it saves about 3k if you can use the G5.

Thoughts?

My J is at Hawk for paint now once it is done it will be killer inside and out

[Marauder]

Well I figured it out.  They take my single tube Aspen out first.  Install the G5 it is now primary this is work order number 1.  So I have a vacuum attitude, slip turn, altimeter and AS.  This is legal IFR just no glass.  Then they open ticket number 2 and put in the 3 tube Aspen with battery back up as the back up to the G5.  This is legal and ok according to my shop.  I have seen it now in 5 planes.  I like the idea of not spending the extra $ on the ESi500 as it does nothing for me.  The Aspen drives my AP either way and the ESI does not do that so it saves about 3k if you can use the G5.
Thoughts?
My J is at Hawk for paint now once it is done it will be killer inside and out

Interesting approach. Have you called Aspen to see what they had to say about that configuration? I got burned once by a field approval. I had a device installed in my plane that was field approved by one FSDO only to require it removed by another FSDO. As long as the shop has the approval in hand, I think the risk is low.


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[StinkBug]

I had a G5 installed a couple months ago to replace a failing AI, and I absolutely love the thing. 

Just read through this thread and thought I'd comment on a few things.

First, I've seen absolutely nothing indicating that the Certified G5 has an internal gps. Everything I have seen indicates that you either need the optional antenna, or a feed from another certified GPS source. I already had a 430w, so just pulled from there. On my install the G5 comes on with the master, but will show big red X's over the heading and ground speed until the 430 powers up and has signal. If that takes too long, or if signal is lost for some reason the X's will go away, but so will those portions of the display. They have always come right back when GPS was restored though. 

Per the STC the HSI display is disabled, but it's literally a couple button presses away from being enabled again. I found it by accident while poking around the setup menu. To get to the menu simply press in on the knob then power up. From there you can play with everything, just be careful not to screw any of the important settings up. All that said, I don't find much use in the HSI display. The AI screen gives you a heading bug if you're following a GPS track, and the only time the HSI display would be useful is flying IFR where the AI is really much more important. 

There seem to be some HUGE variations in cost out there. I called a bunch of shops and talked to a lot of people locally before deciding on an installer. I ended up buying the unit direct from Aircraft Spruce because they had the shortest lead time. All the shops were being told a month or more from garmin, and I had a dead AI and trips planned. Normally my installer wouldn't install something he didn't sell, but he made an exception for me because of the circumstances. Part of the deal was that he was going to bill me straight labor time though, so I couldn't hold him to an estimate. As it turned out he hit the estimate anyways. I had him install the G5, do my IFR certs (which were due) and also add the interconnect data cable to make my 496 and 430 talk to each other. Total bill was roughly $900, about $600 of that was the G5 install. At the time that shop had only done a couple, and most of the shops I called were giving what seemed like wild guesses at time to install. All in all I'm thrilled with the shop that did the job. He was super straightforward with me, actually scheduled a specific time and date, got it done quickly and ended up being cheaper than all the other quotes as well. 

 

[82Mike]

21 hours ago, Marauder said:

 

Interesting approach. Have you called Aspen to see what they had to say about that configuration? I got burned once by a field approval. I had a device installed in my plane that was field approved by one FSDO only to require it removed by another FSDO. As long as the shop has the approval in hand, I think the risk is low.


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[82Mike]

They do, the Aspen people concur.  The ticket opening and closing is obviously the issue, but really if you have a two tube Aspen set up (3 for me) and a G5 what does L3 do but cost more.  If it could drive my AP I would not even question, but reality is one of my PFD's had to do that.  If they both fail I am landing and a attitude indicator is really what I need.  Looks legit to me?

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, StinkBug said:

First, I've seen absolutely nothing indicating that the Certified G5 has an internal gps. Everything I have seen indicates that you either need the optional antenna, or a feed from another certified GPS source. I already had a 430w, so just pulled from there. On my install the G5 comes on with the master, but will show big red X's over the heading and ground speed until the 430 powers up and has signal. If that takes too long, or if signal is lost for some reason the X's will go away, but so will those portions of the display. They have always come right back when GPS was restored though. 

If there wasn't an internal GPS why would it need any type of antenna? 

It has an internal GPS

[bradp]

Look mom, no puff of smoke.  

The installation in going in now and is requiring a new GPS antenna (no new holes in the fuselage - just swapping antennas) and a connection to the GNS 430. 

I got through antenna, crimping TNC and BNC connectors and making the new little harness.  The most difficult part by far was accessing the GNS J1 connector to repin the RS-232 to the G5.  At one point I think I heard every vertebrae in my back crack simultaneously.  Many curse words and I at least got it not to lose its smoke.  Or the 430 to lose its smoke either. 

Unanticipated issue was the stratoflex hose for the vacuum system didn't reach to the attitude indicator so a new length of hose will be required.  

Next tasks are pitot static plumbing and installation of new panel shock mounts.  Then we have to do the calibrations.  

Tomorrow and Sunday will be family days- full annual inspection on Monday.  Next week is going to be all airplane maintenance.  And some fireworks.

I spent about 8 hours on it today and expect another 6-8 hrs of work.  So shops quoting a day seems reasonable depending on how much stuff needs to be moved around, and whether an antenna is required. 

 

About the most simple avionics install I could start with and even this is not for the faint of heart.  

 

 

Little 4-ft wire harness I made   The included back shell is high quality   

 

Not the standard 6-pack position   

[kortopates]

23 hours ago, 82Mike said:

Well I figured it out.  They take my single tube Aspen out first.  Install the G5 it is now primary this is work order number 1.  So I have a vacuum attitude, slip turn, altimeter and AS.  This is legal IFR just no glass.  Then they open ticket number 2 and put in the 3 tube Aspen with battery back up as the back up to the G5.  This is legal and ok according to my shop.  I have seen it now in 5 planes.  I like the idea of not spending the extra $ on the ESi500 as it does nothing for me.  The Aspen drives my AP either way and the ESI does not do that so it saves about 3k if you can use the G5.

What doesn't sound right is the notion that you can name one "backup" and the other "primary" to your convenience. More specifically, I understand the instrument that is considered your primary must be in located in the primary position on your panel; and the so called backup instrument must not be in the center position intended for the primary.  So this begs the question on how your panel layout will meet the requirements of keeping your G5 within the location limits for being primary for Attitude and the 3 Aspens still located close enough to center so that they are still workable for you as primary. 

[PTK]

In addition to positioning as Paul mentioned, another thing that doesn't sound right to me is your official backup driving the autopilot. I don't know if that is allowed.