Cognitive response with age

[cliffy]

As long as I brought it up in another thread I thought I'd start a new one here on the  subject.

This is mainly for us "older" pilots but could be pertinent to anyone.

Do any of you out there monitor your cognitive response as you are getting older?

Do you notice the little things that you miss that maybe you wouldn't have missed 10 or 20 yrs ago?

Do you notice your cognitive speed decreasing? You don't process incoming information as quickly as you did a decade ago.

Just wondering if any out there even think about it? 

[Steve Dawson]

Good question and I think it has more to it then just losing your cognitive abilities. I think part of it is losing confidence or at least not having the blind confidence you had when you were younger and not using your learning skills to keep your brain sharp. 

[Bennett]

I'm certainly aware that my physical stamina is not as it was 10 years ago (I'm 81 now). Some lower back pains in cold weather, but general health is great. I work full time in three business that I own, and this keeps my brain going. I fly with my crusty old flight instructor a couple of times a year, and so far he thinks I am a safe pilot. If I was't he would tell me instantly, as the man has no tact, but boy can he make a airplane do what he wants. The family history is good - my dad, grandfather and great grandfather all made it to 97-101. No guarantee for me, but it bodes well. I do think about when I will stop flying, but it's not that time yet. I attend many Wings seminars (and I was a lecturer in about four over the last few years), and I think this helps towards flying safely. After 40 years or so flying Instruments I decided a year ago to restrict my flying to VFR conditions. I still practice approaches, but that is just to maintain the skills should an emergency occur. My current thinking is that age 85 is my stopping point even if all else is well. Of course, I might stop earlier depending on either or both my physical and mental health.


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[Piloto]

Something I found that helps with memory is to talk out loud what you need to remember. When you read back a clearance it helps remembering it. Common sense thinking and experience helps you out in assessing new situations. A young pilot in an emergency may have to recall from what he learned but an old pilot recalls from actual experience. Remembering names are the hardest. But if you relate the name to an object it makes it easier to remember. Like Trump to an elephant or Clinton to clean-tooth.

José

Edited December 5, 2016 by Piloto

[Danb]

As Steve mentioned it's somewhat a confidence issue also, a few years ago I decided I was going to do at least one three day flight instruction Program a year also I was flying home from Texas to Delaware this summer in the crap most of the way and started losing confidence, I landed in Cincinnati for the night did some sole searching and decided to increase my flying to at least once a week plus practicing or consider quitting. Going to the MAPA program in September for the sixth straight year and increasing my flying seems to have worked. All this was based on my age and lack of confidence, my take as we age we need to fly more in an effort to sharpen our diminished skills. Seems crazy as age and hours go up we must practice more. I can't believe some of them guys at the airport there getting older (70+) and there flying less, one guy I know didn't fly for 6-7 months he jumped in the plane, hard Ifr and went on a trip. 

[Bennett]

Good point about flying frequently. I fly every week. Sometimes to a destination that is 1-2 hours away, but if I don't have a destination in mind, I will fly about 100 miles down the coast (CA) at various altitudes and play with the autopilot settings, and run through the various options on the GTNs. I always hand fly back. I don't like pattern flying in Mooneys just for practice, and so I tend to fly to a few local airports if I want to try slightly different variations in landing technique. Sorry, but I just can't bring myself to raise the flaps just before landing.


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[Mooneymite]

Interesting subject for me, but all of us will ponder it.....eventually.

The government has decreed that age 65 is the end of the line for part 121 flying, but has done so without substantial data to pick that particular age.

Under part 91 and part 135, one may fly as long as he can pass his physical and his check ride (part 135) or obtain a BFR (part 91).  However, we all know there comes a time when ability slips below the "adequate" threshold.  It may not be all the time, but even if you're having bad days, it may be time to hang up your spurs.

Recently the union for one of the fractional providers (it flys under FAA parts 91K and 135) published a scale of the ages of its (approximately) 4000 pilots.  I was surprised to see that there were 150 pilots over 65 with 79 of these in the 70 to 80 bracket, with 10 of those over 75.  There were no active pilots over 80.  These pilots fly pretty hard schedules (usually 7 days in a row, with 14 hour days common) in some pretty advanced biz jets.

However, I believe that "too old" is a very individual question with an extremely high number of variables.  I don't think one age fits all.

[Andy95W]

I've started noticing I have to get up in the middle of the night to pee. Does that count?

[co2bruce]

47 minutes ago, N1395W said:

I've started noticing I have to get up in the middle of the night to pee. Does that count?

Only once??

[N201MKTurbo]

I didn't used to have to write down had ATIS letter, now I do. 

[RobertGary1]

I volunteer as a Checkpilot with CAP (usaf aux). In the last couple years I've had to remove instrument privileges from long time squadron pilots (Vietnam era pilots) due to what I believe are age related cognitive issues. They're fine vfr but just too behind for ifr. These guys are mid 70's. I suspect that with intensive training they may be able to get up to standards but it would take a large commitment to do it. It's a bit sad  

 

-Robert

Edited December 5, 2016 by RobertGary1

[carusoam]

I have the honor to work with people with brain injuries...  BIANJ if you want some background... http://bianj.org/

All injuries are different.  Many of them mimic the effects of aging.  As we age we come across all sorts of injuries.  Viral diseases, strokes, car accidents, heart-attacks (lack of circulation getting to the hospital).  Some injuries we do to ourselves without seeing it...

The one we often notice with relatives is Short term conversion to long term memories... while we sleep...

Diet and exercise are important for anyone trying to overcome an injury.

Maintaining one's cognitive health is the same way, only less intense.

There is some fun knowing how to measure some of these things.  There is some technology that doesn't cost that much either...  we all have some tablet computer already...

Bottom line...  There is not going to be a too old to do something...  there is still going to be limitations.  Just not driven by age.

The brain covers so many areas, from memory skills, to logic skills, to speed at which it operates... nothing like a good approach to test your multi-tasking skills.  As a VFR pilot, the traffic pattern, speed, vertical velocity, position reports, and rounding out over the tarmac, not above it, really shows how well the brain is working that day.

Some tough things to grasp are some days we are really good at something and other days, not so much...

Take the test on one of the good days...  you can see the limitations of the existing system.  The PIC is in charge of himself! Not a gov test.

Now for the parts which you can measure.  Create your baseline then compare yourself later, to yourself today...

test yourself in the morning,  or late in the evening, or middle of the night....

The app that people use to do this measuring... Lumosity.  Simple brain games that exercise the brains various jobs.  No, they are not fun... yes, it is applied science...

For people trying to improve cognitive functions, they exercise.  Improving circulation, simply brings more oxygen to the brain.  The brain uses oxygen to function and repair itself.  More O2 circulated, more brain power.... the brain can take years to improve. It does improve even if you are older than Bennet's relatives...  that advertisement with the eggs in a frying pan, this is your brain.... seriously missed the point.

I had learned these details in some of the biology classes I had taken high school and college.  Exercise and studying went pretty well together... 

Avoid going outside the lines...  this doesn't mean run three seven minute miles in a row before going to a job interview.... you may never make it to the interview.  High school baseball players need to run one seven minute mile.  HS soccer players need a pair of miles in 14 minutes.  We are not high school age.  If you are seeking to exercise like this, check with your doctor first, it is that serious...

The other measuring device people are using lately is the Fitbit HR monitor on their wrist.  HR is for heart rate.  It also measures the amount and quality of sleep you have gotten.  Pilots running into sleep apnea challenges would benefit from having one of these to determine for themselves how well do I really sleep at night...?

I surprised myself, aging has been difficult.  But making personal changes can produce some strong results.

Some people can get away with smoking a pack of cigarettes every day, eating a fatty diet, washed down with liters of empty calories... others can't.

I am not preaching a healthy diet, good rest, and paying for insurance. Just sharing what I know about how the brain ages, and how it can be repaired...

Don't let it age, do give it exercise, feed it properly...

Did you know that knowledge and experience are stored in the brain differently?  You can lose one and retain the other as well....

PP thoughts only, I am not a brain surgeon or cognitive therapist...

Feel free to PM me regarding these details.

Best regards,

-a-

[aviatoreb]

There's something I need to say here.

Wait a sec.

Ummmm...what were we talking about again?

No seriously - I have thought about this a bit from time to time.  I am 49, and a math professor so I think for a living.  But a different kind of thinking than the quick reaction but simple rote processing thinking that goes on in aviation.  I have noticed that in recent years, if anything I think I am better in the sense that I have a broader perspective on my field.  I know more stuff...I am more educated than I was when I got my Phd at 27.  I was a wet behind the ears young punk who knew something, like one thing, fantastically well. Now I know lots of stuff.  My skills are way beyond what they were then, and I just know a lot a lotta things that comes from literally 2 decades of continued nonstop education.  I think that last sentence must apply to all of us in professional educated jobs, whether professor, doctor, lawyer, executive.  If you work your butt off and continue to do your homework, then you learn a lotta stuff.  So happily so far I am not noticing much aging symptoms but I am enjoying experience that comes from years.  Plus I have more of a patient approach to my work - I am patient to work on one problem with no progress for days on end in a way that I was not when I was young, and this really helps me crack problems I just did not have the patience to tackle when I was young.

I do forget people's names almost as soon as I hear them (which is very embarrassing) but I have I ALWAYS done that, but now when I do it, people laugh at me and tell me my mind is going bad.

[Bennett]

I believe that keeping One's mind busy working on problem solving is a help in keeping sharp enough to keep flying as one ages. I mentioned my father (still writing short stories up to his death at 97), my grandfather (still working on his Aramaic - Hebrew dictionary in his mid 90s, - a 30 year long project), and my great grandfather (a respected Talmudic scholar and Rabbi until his death at 101). On the other hand I have seen contemporaries die shortly after retirement when they stopped driving themselves to keep learning (and competing mentally). This seems to be especially true of my military contemporaries (who often drank themselves to death).

Of course physical diseases can kill, or disable, one at any time, but I trying to confine my comments relative to the mental skill sets in flying.


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[Bennett]

Just another comment. After every flight I mentally replay the flight at bedtime, and critique what I could have done better. I've been doing this for decades, and I think it useful. I don't think I have ever had a"perfect" flight, but it is fun to think about how close I can get to that "perfect" flight. Maybe my last flight at 85.




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[flyboy0681]

3 hours ago, Bennett said:

Just another comment. After every flight I mentally replay the flight at bedtime, and critique what I could have done better. I've been doing this for decades, and I think it useful. I don't think I have ever had a"perfect" flight, but it is fun to think about how close I can get to that "perfect" flight. Maybe my last flight at 85.

 

How bizarre, I do the identical thing. I lie in bed, trying to go to sleep, while going through every aspect of the days trip. Most of the time good, sometimes bad, real bad.

If you want somebody to fly in the right seat with you, I'll be in San Mateo the week of January 21st. We can fly around and go over the Talmud together, or at least the Passover Haggadah.

[carusoam]

Bennet, Great point!

Reviewing the day, before going to sleep is a great way to prepare the thoughts to go into storage...  a simple review of tomorrow's schedule can help keep you organized on the following day.

this is why students should study two days before a test.  90% goes into the memory, leaving the next day to focus on, and pick up, the 10% that didn't stick....

Cramming everything in the day before the test will leave that elusive 10% on the table.  Throw being tired into the mix is a recipe for trouble...

The pharma business has tried to help people improve their cognitive skills by improving circulation... the side benefits are touted by the Pfizer/Viagra/blue pill.... improved circulation is good for all organs...

 

How this applies to flying...  staying ahead of the airplane...

Staying ahead of, staying on top of, or just not falling behind...

 

Set the goal:  define what being on top is for you...

The typical baseline for landing a plane can be as simple as selecting three or four points defining the traffic pattern. Add target speeds and power settings. Now, add in configuration and trim settings... this goal always needs to be updated based on weight, balance, TPA and weather...

 

Continuously measure the performance, as you fly the pattern.  Know the challenges of a slower thought process. Recognize when it is happening.  Use your imaginary flight instructor sitting beside you as you go through the pattern....

He asks, are you... Too fast? Too high? Too much power?

know your strategy to handle being too fast, and too high, and having too much power in...

Using a 'stabilized approach' is a nice way of saying 'Luuuke, stay on target'

 

When you do this enough, you develop and memorize strategies for setting power levels and trimming to 'easily' meet the performance expectations.

The traffic pattern is only a few miles long.  Showing up in the pattern with the gear up at 120kias is a tough way to start a process that only lasts a few minutes...

 

How this relates to Erik's days long math challenges...  

- a good moderate bike ride around campus that elevates the HR improves blood flow for the day...

- eating properly puts the proper nutrients into the improved blood flow...

- Measuring HR during the ride and reviewing after can maintain a needed level of safety...

- measuring O2 saturation may help explain some heart efficiency challenges. (Sorry Dr. Dave, I'm blundering into your area)

- flying a few laps around the traffic pattern can give a cognitive break that can be rewarding like a good sleep.

- Using a good sleep monitor, the same Fitbit, can provide insight to how well the sleep process is working.

- people's names are a different type of challenge. Similar, but different... saying a person's name outloud is a method people use to make a cognitive connection that will help retrieve their name when you see them in person or their picture... The act of writing things down is a similar strategy.  

- I have met Scott, Erik's second son, we met in a café in Princeton and discussed the future of aviation instrumentation...

- you may forget a person's name almost immediately. Especially, if it is a name that is not a familiar one.  I met up with Joe Z and his wife, Roya a while ago... What you may find is the memory gets formed separately from how the memory gets retrieved...

- exercising one part of the brain can improve the other parts.  Pick the fun exercises, and enjoy the side benefits...

- fortunately, there isn't a deadline to finish theoretical math problems.  Until a competitor finishes the same challenge, the day before...

Overall, if you have fear of degrading cognitive performance, know that there are some strategies to possibly help out.  Diet, sleep and exercise changes are not always going to be easy or fun.  The side effects of being healthy is looking healthy.  That's kind of fun.  

PP thoughts for the day.... not CFI, or cardiac surgeon ideas...

Best regards,

-a-

[Bennett]

How bizarre, I do the identical thing. I lie in bed, trying to go to sleep, while going through every aspect of the days trip. Most of the time good, sometimes bad, real bad.
If you want somebody to fly in the right seat with you, I'll be in San Mateo the week of January 21st. We can fly around and go over the Talmud together, or at least the Passover Haggadah.

Yes! Sent you a PM


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[thinwing]

23 hours ago, cliffy said:

As long as I brought it up in another thread I thought I'd start a new one here on the  subject.

This is mainly for us "older" pilots but could be pertinent to anyone.

Do any of you out there monitor your cognitive response as you are getting older?

Do you notice the little things that you miss that maybe you wouldn't have missed 10 or 20 yrs ago?

Do you notice your cognitive speed decreasing? You don't process incoming information as quickly as you did a decade ago.

Just wondering if any out there even think about it? 

Huh?...what?...say what??

[thinwing]

1 hour ago, Hyett6420 said:

Names are an easy thing to remember.  When you are told someone's name you normally are not concentrating on what is being said but in the new persons face and clothes as you are being told their name.  Humans are not good at multi tasking.  So I was taught to hear the name and then assign it to something about the person, like "Jane red coat" or "Jim, throat scar", my favorite is a friend of Andrew's who is called Claire (he has lots of friends called Claire)  so this one is "Claire funny eye". as she has a squint. Works everytime. 

Andrew. 

(The other Andrew is my husband in case you were confused). 

I was confused Andrew,but thought it was my old age double vision acting up again!

[Oldguy]

As Erik intimated above, it seems a constant learning lifestyle is de rigueur for many professions today. Even moving from the technical side into management many years ago, advancements kept me attending classes and seminars and reading books and articles just to keep up and not fall behind. We in the technology field often want to feel as if no other area has as much rapid change happening to it as we are do, but the truth is everyone I know is constantly having to learn about new FASB rules, new surgical procedures with or without robotics or new laws and regulations. Then on top of those changes, they are affected by technology moving into their professions.

I don't really think I am slower now than before, but I have realized my experiences give me pause to consider more options than I would have in the past. I actually find I am catching more things than I did before. Processing at the same speed, but running through much more data than before.

Of course, I could always go back to writing Assembler for mainframes, but it is so difficult to find a good keypunch machine these days.

[flyboy0681]

2 minutes ago, Oldguy said:

As Erik intimated above, it seems a constant learning lifestyle is de rigueur for many professions today. Even moving from the technical side into management many years ago, advancements kept me attending classes and seminars and reading books and articles just to keep up and not fall behind. We in the technology field often want to feel as if no other area has as much rapid change happening to it as we are do, but the truth is everyone I know is constantly having to learn about new FASB rules, new surgical procedures with or without robotics or new laws and regulations. Then on top of those changes, they are affected by technology moving into their professions.

I don't really think I am slower now than before, but I have realized my experiences give me pause to consider more options than I would have in the past. I actually find I am catching more things than I did before. Processing at the same speed, but running through much more data than before.

Of course, I could always go back to writing Assembler for mainframes, but it is so difficult to find a good keypunch machine these days.

I write software day in and day out and my brain is definitely fried, so there goes the theory.

BTW, you can pickup an IBM 029 for a few bucks on eBay.

 

[pinerunner]

I wonder about this. I found I had forgotten to put my pitot tube cover back on twice in a row. I'm 60. I think I've always had a tendency to let down a little when a flight was done and not do as good a job putting the plane to bed as I did preflighting it. I'm learning IFR now at a late age and getting clearances straight seems a challenge. I don't think my actual flying skills have declined and they may even be better now that I have my own plane and fly it more regularly. Not a fair comparison to when I was renting. I know there are lots of stories about older people turning the wrong way down a one-way street. One older friend of an uncle of mine ran threw a stop sign in a strange place and got hit and killed.   

[Joe Zuffoletto]

On 12/5/2016 at 6:25 AM, aviatoreb said:

do forget people's names almost as soon as I hear them (which is very embarrassing) but I have I ALWAYS done that, but now when I do it, people laugh at me and tell me my mind is going bad.

I never forget names since I took the Joe Carnegie course.

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, Joe Zuffoletto said:

I never forget names since I took the Joe Carnegie course.

Whose course was that again?