ChristianGodin Posted May 22, 2016 Report Posted May 22, 2016 Hello, i am a little confuse about Usefull load Legal wise: Is the limitation related to landing portion of the flight only or the whole flight... from lift off to landing. If related to the landing portion only, this mean one could take off overload as far as if the weight is reduce enough when linding. Thank You
N201MKTurbo Posted May 22, 2016 Report Posted May 22, 2016 The Mooney doesn't have different weights for take off and landing. The limiting weight is the gross weight. It needs to be calculated before takeoff.
KSMooniac Posted May 22, 2016 Report Posted May 22, 2016 I believe some of the latest Mooneys have a max landing weight that is less than the max gross weight. Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk
Marauder Posted May 22, 2016 Report Posted May 22, 2016 Hello, i am a little confuse about Usefull load Legal wise: Is the limitation related to landing portion of the flight only or the whole flight... from lift off to landing. If related to the landing portion only, this mean one could take off overload as far as if the weight is reduce enough when linding. Thank You Christian -- you won't find a max landing weight for the older Mooneys. The useful load is the max allowable for operating the flight. You could though load a plane to max weight and have an out of CG situation. I was made aware that the newer Mooneys do have a max ramp, MTOW and a max landing weight. Which poses an interesting question. How do you lose weight if you need to return shortly after take-off?
Raptor05121 Posted May 22, 2016 Report Posted May 22, 2016 I think burning fuel is your only legal choice.
Guest Posted May 22, 2016 Report Posted May 22, 2016 Useful load is the legal gross take off weight minus the airplane's legal empty weight(from the weight and balance report). This number is the maximum weight you can carry in the plane in flight in the form of people, fuel and cargo. As noted newer models have a maximum landing weight, landing at weights above this will result in the need for a "heavy or over weight landing inspection" Clarence
N201MKTurbo Posted May 22, 2016 Report Posted May 22, 2016 9 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said: The Mooney doesn't have different weights for take off and landing. The limiting weight is the gross weight. It needs to be calculated before takeoff. 9 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said: The Mooney doesn't have different weights for take off and landing. The limiting weight is the gross weight. It needs to be calculated before takeoff. Ok, I need to get checked out in an Ovation, my world is obviously too limited.
Bob - S50 Posted May 22, 2016 Report Posted May 22, 2016 Christian, As others have said, and in your words, it's from liftoff to landing for older Mooneys. However, the way I interpret that, since we have no max ramp weight for our older Mooneys, I can be over the gross weight limit during taxi operations. So if weight becomes an issue, and I plan on burning one gallon of 100LL for engine start, warm up, taxi, and takeoff (before I get airborne), I can be 5.82# over max gross when I start. I'll burn that gallon before I get airborne and be right at max gross for the flight.
FlyDave Posted May 22, 2016 Report Posted May 22, 2016 On the Bravo and Ovation, and I think the Acclaim as well, MTOW (Maximum Gross Takeoff Weight) is 3,368 lbs. and Maximum landing weight is 3,200 lbs.. 2
bradp Posted May 22, 2016 Report Posted May 22, 2016 Also know that for a significant percentage of the fleet 1) performance is less than book values and 2) stuff has accumulated in the plane without a new W&B having been performed. 1
wiguy Posted May 22, 2016 Report Posted May 22, 2016 Then once we get done with useful load, we have to consider performance numbers/information for our planned operation. Often the most critical is the takeoff, but other phases of flight may factor in. Not to be a mother hen, but it doesn't take to much time viewing accident reports to find mishaps from heavy T/O attempts. They may of been fine at that 5000' sea level airport at 59 degrees, but to much with adverse conditions. One other point is, the aircraft doesn't have a sharp line between fly-able and not fly able with the weight. Piloting technique comes into play when we operate right at the cusp of performance. There have been accidents where a very gentle attitude control, without turns, and a little extra airspeed would of saved the day. I rember a few where the weight was within limits, but the plane was flown poorly. Sorry, just some rambling about the issue. 2
Raptor05121 Posted May 22, 2016 Report Posted May 22, 2016 Also to add-on with the above, ferry pilots skillfully fly aircraft with 150% of max gross weight across the pond with a simple FAA signature from a fax, aircraft remains sightunseen
takair Posted May 22, 2016 Report Posted May 22, 2016 Beyond takeoff performance, the weight drives the stall speed and thus the survivabiltity of a forced landing if the engine quits. The impossible turn becomes more impossible even if you give it a few more feet. That said, a forced landing is highly dependent on where you find to land, and even at light weight can have a questionable outcome if you can't get to a nice field.
Piloto Posted May 22, 2016 Report Posted May 22, 2016 Keep in mind that all those weight numbers in the POH apply to taxing over hard surface. When on grass field high weight can make taxing difficult or impossible, specially for the M20R, M20M and M20TN. The small size of the nose wheel combined with a large engine weight can cause the wheel to dig in and get stuck with a possible prop strike. A heavy long body Mooney on grass will have a dirty rear end. To avoid this I keep the weight to less than 2800 pounds for all models when taxing on grass. José
carusoam Posted May 23, 2016 Report Posted May 23, 2016 Christian, It is part of the flight planning exercise. From take-off to completely empty of all fuel. Because, when you are having a bad day and you are burning all of your fuel, you still have a chance to live if you can land with the engine out in a field. Any questions about flying over-weight... 1) can be answered by Patrick, when you meet him... (Sorry, Not a very nice way of covering this topic) Patrick's plane wasn't overweight, but his density altitude was higher than he accounted for. 2) He is probably hanging out with the guy who was legally ferrying a Long Body towards HI. That flight ended in a farm field mixed up with irrigation equipment. 3) For a sense of it only happens to errant pilots, look for the photo with the fifth Beatle sitting in the cargo area of an M20C. It was kind of a selfie by somebody up front. That was an errant pilot. All five survived to try again... Patrick was a well trained Mooney pilot. He reminds us today of how important it is to know the density altitude at the time of take-off, and to use the entire available runway. Even if it only adds another 200' of length. Unfun serious stuff... Real examples from a C, J and O. Details may be a small bit off they are from old memories I got from MS. They can be searched for here. Best regards, -a-
carusoam Posted May 23, 2016 Report Posted May 23, 2016 More fun and somewhat serious... Dave captured the Long Body landing weights above. They apply to the M20R as well. At full gross, it takes about an hour of flight to burn the fuel required to meet landing weight. Using a good app or spreadsheet, will give changes of weight and balance, from full to empty, and split it up hourly for plotting on the envelope graph. The reason for the limit on the landing weights is the strength of the gear. They are pretty stout, but when loading up the plane consider all the landing goofs that happen normally. I good pilot in good weather probably can land a heavy Mooney very smooothly. Picture being in a rush, loading up the family, and forgetting to check the baggage door. Fly for an hour fully loaded with family, the baggage door opens on rotation, and a tornado goes through the inside of the plane. It definitely would not be the time to knock the rust off the landing skills. An overweight porpoise would not be well behaved... A 280hp Long Body Mooney, after a few days at sloshkosh taxies like a Mooney tied down with chains. Ever wish you forgot to release the tie downs? Full throttle was not enough to break it free... Best regards, -a-
carusoam Posted May 23, 2016 Report Posted May 23, 2016 While considering this challenge from an engineering point of view... 1) stall speeds increase with weight. The stall speed of an over weight plane is not in the POH. It will not be a linear relationship that can be estimated... 2) T/O ground role increases with weight. The T/O distance of an overweight plane is not in the POH. It will not be a linear relationship that can be estimated... 3) Climb rate decreases with weight. The climb rate of an overweight plane is not in the POH. It will not be a linear relationship that can be estimated... 4) Climb will take longer, the engine will work hard for longer, and generate that much more heat that needs to be dissipated... 5) Adding more power to the plane has some interesting effects. Legal increases are found in STCs or other maintenance documents. Increased timing or increased rpm can produce more usable power without adding any additional weight. The STC has documented updates for the plane's POH covering T/O distance and climb rates. Adding a TN system will have similar effects, but the weight and balance will need an update to go with it. 6) adding more power, probably will not increase the MGW for any phase of flight. But, the T/O distance and climb rates will be improved. Consider T/O being the most critical. The engine will be working harder because it is climbing. It will be climbing longer than normal, and climbing like crap. If a valve were to stick during this awful treatment, you would be in more of a rush to lower the nose to keep from stalling, estimating what that stall speed might actually be, throwing in some extra padding while speed reading emergency procedures and reviewing placards on the instrument panel. overall you wouldn't want to fly outside the envelope for either weight or balance. Balance is a bit of a challenge to get out of the envelope in most Mooneys. For other planes... The worst situation would be to get out of balance as fuel burns off and not be able to do much about it as trim and arm strength runs out... Stalling a plane that has had it's balance run backwards towards the tail is difficult to recover from. My posting in this thread is only meant to be informative. To add to the conversation. Not to berate the other planes who's balance runs backwards towards their V-tails as the fuel burns. I'm only a PP, not a CFI. Hoping to be helpful while building my writing and memory skills. Best regards, -a- 1
Hank Posted May 23, 2016 Report Posted May 23, 2016 49 minutes ago, carusoam said: A 280hp Long Body Mooney, after a few days at sloshkosh taxies like a Mooney tied down with chains. Ever wish you forgot to release the tie downs? Full throttle was not enough to break it free... I wasn't at SloshKosh, but we did receive a lot of rain at Tornado n Fun. Enough that I didn't leave on Saturday because the ground in GAC parking was still squishy. I heard an incoming Cessna bury it's nosewheel and have a prop strike while I was checking the ground in front of my plane. I left on Sunday, pushed the plane out of parking and turned into the taxiway before loading. Made it easier to get rolling, but still took lots of throttle. Agree with the difficulty of loading outside of CG limits, but I have to watch the forward limit with large right sweaters due to. Y 3-blade prop. Tail heavy flies a little faster, but it's hard for me to achieve. The rear limit is pretty much unreachable unless I'm carrying bricks or sets of encyclopedias (but then there's that nagging 120lb limit in the baggage area anyway). Great, versatile airplanes, and pretty frugal to operate across the line.
carusoam Posted May 23, 2016 Report Posted May 23, 2016 The fifth Beatle in the picture wasn't 120# either... We waited a long time to be alone in the outback. (Knowing some power was going to be dissipated rearwards.) Two of us were unable to get the wheels to move. I think we got a couple of people to push while I was solo in the cockpit. Once on fresh ground the taxiing was a non-issue. The long grass made it difficult to tell how deep the nose wheel had really sunk in... Best regards, -a-
steingar Posted May 23, 2016 Report Posted May 23, 2016 Problem with flying overweight is you become a test pilot. Maybe you're a good enough stick to do that. I'm not.
Hank Posted May 23, 2016 Report Posted May 23, 2016 3 hours ago, steingar said: Problem with flying overweight is you become a test pilot. Maybe you're a good enough stick to do that. I'm not. I'm not brave enough to find out if I am or not . . . . The "not" part is a final decision.
rbridges Posted May 23, 2016 Report Posted May 23, 2016 On 5/22/2016 at 3:05 AM, Marauder said: I was made aware that the newer Mooneys do have a max ramp, MTOW and a max landing weight. Which poses an interesting question. How do you lose weight if you need to return shortly after take-off? find the passenger you like the least and give them a quick shove to the right. On a more serious note, I remember the P and Q model Cessna 182 could have different takeoff and landing weights. The landing weight was limited by how much the gear could support.
Guillaume Posted May 23, 2016 Report Posted May 23, 2016 (edited) 19 hours ago, carusoam said: While considering this challenge from an engineering point of view... 1) stall speeds increase with weight. The stall speed of an over weight plane is not in the POH. It will not be a linear relationship that can be estimated... From an engineering point of view you can find the stall speed at any weight provided you know the stall speed at one single weight. You should use two lift equations (where the plane flies level, so that lift =weight) and merge them. Indeed, it is non linear. Edited May 23, 2016 by Guillaume
bradp Posted May 24, 2016 Report Posted May 24, 2016 Do ferry pilots legally flying overweight rely on AOA indicators to give them an idea of stall margin or do they just say I'll go fast?
Hank Posted May 24, 2016 Report Posted May 24, 2016 Just now, bradp said: Do ferry pilots legally flying overweight rely on AOA indicators to give them an idea of stall margin or do they just say I'll go fast? Planes have been ferried for decades. Can't imagine adding an old-style AOA, complete with pitot tubing and wiring, to make one flight. I'm sure the manufacturers have some information used to ferry new planes that isn't shared with the general flying public.
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