J-bar folks: How do you handle gear on a go-around?

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

And since you've also slowed to something like 1.3 or even 1.2 x Vso it is imperative that AS be increased before dumping flaps (Vs is 17% higher than Vso for my E).

I think assuming every mooney pilot does this is optimistic!

[mike_elliott]

On ‎4‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 9:58 PM, Marauder said:

Lots of practice.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Looks like this guy has been pulling on a jbar since 13 or so...

[Jerry 5TJ]

If you go around at MDA / DA you want to keep it simple:

 

• Power up
• Pitch up
• Positive Rate - confirm

 

no need to distract yourself needlessly.  The gear can wait.

 ( if you mess up on any of those first  3 tasks you may want the gear down anyway)

 

[Bob_Belville]

3 hours ago, Shadrach said:

I think assuming every mooney pilot does this is optimistic!

Yeah, so be warned. If you flip up that innocent looking hydraulic flap valve in a vintage Mooney @ 60 kts you're on the edge of a stall and behind the power curve... throw in gusty winds and you're is a pickle.  

[Shadrach]

7 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

Yeah, so be warned. If you flip up that innocent looking hydraulic flap valve in a vintage Mooney @ 60 kts you're on the edge of a stall and behind the power curve... throw in gusty winds and you're is a pickle.  

With just me and 30gals on board my bird comes in at ~2070lbs, 60Kts IS 1.3Vso...  I am fine flying final at 70MIAS!

[Bob_Belville]

29 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

With just me and 30gals on board my bird comes in at ~2070lbs, 60Kts IS 1.3Vso...  I am fine fling final at 70MIAS!

You've been warned. Just sayin'. 

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, Bob_Belville said:

You've been warned. Just sayin'. 

Oh I misunderstood what you were saying. You mean on the go around.   I don't need or want to raise flaps until after well after climb out.

[steingar]

I looked over accident statistics when I bought the Mooney and swore I'd never do a go around in it absent cause. Too many things to do in too little time. For training purposes I taxi back and start again.

I'm pretty committed to keeping the wheels on the ground once they hit the ground.  If I see something I don't like on the runway while on final, I'll go around. Every landing is a go around until I'm happy. Every take off is an abort until I'm happy.  But once the wheels hit the ground they stay there.  Better to hit something at low speed while standing on the brakes than risk trying to take off with a miscomfigured airplane. A lot to do under pressure and while the airplane is moving.

If some CFI insists on doing go arounds I'll invite him or her to be someone else's CFI.

[DonMuncy]

35 minutes ago, steingar said:

I looked over accident statistics when I bought the Mooney and swore I'd never do a go around in it absent cause. Too many things to do in too little time. For training purposes I taxi back and start again.

I'm pretty committed to keeping the wheels on the ground once they hit the ground.  If I see something I don't like on the runway while on final, I'll go around. Every landing is a go around until I'm happy. Every take off is an abort until I'm happy.  But once the wheels hit the ground they stay there.  Better to hit something at low speed while standing on the brakes than risk trying to take off with a miscomfigured airplane. A lot to do under pressure and while the airplane is moving.

If some CFI insists on doing go arounds I'll invite him or her to be someone else's CFI.

As for practicing touch and goes, I agree with you. I do stop and goes. But as to going around because something isn't right; bounce or coyote on the runway not seen till touch down, I will do what has to be done. Pick your risks.

[steingar]

18 minutes ago, DonMuncy said:

As for practicing touch and goes, I agree with you. I do stop and goes. But as to going around because something isn't right; bounce or coyote on the runway not seen till touch down, I will do what has to be done. Pick your risks.

I see something like that on the way in and certainly, I go around with a low pass to scare the thing off.  But if after I've touched down some quadrupedal fauna decides it just has to be on my runway, it's likely to be a dead quadrupedal fauna after I get done colliding with it. If the sudden go around goes wrong it could wind up being me.

But the aspect of mission comes to play.  The vast majority of runways I use have huge open spaces around them. If can't spot said beastie in the way in during my approach I deserve to hit it.  Little strips nestled in the woods just aren't on my mission profile.

[Andy95W]

10 hours ago, steingar said:

  If I see something I don't like on the runway while on final, I'll go around. Every landing is a go around until I'm happy. 

If some CFI insists on doing go arounds I'll invite him or her to be someone else's CFI.

I'm not sure I have this straight:  you see the need to do go arounds, and will do them until you're happy, but you're not willing to practice them with a CFI on board?

You would never have to invite me to be someone else's CFI.  I wouldn't have agreed to be your CFI in the first place.

At this point in my career, I only fly with people I want to fly with, and I don't charge money because it is my way to give back to a life for which I'm grateful.  But I work those people hard, and keep working with them because they want to get better.

Edited April 17, 2016 by N1395W

[steingar]

9 hours ago, N1395W said:

I'm not sure I have this straight:  you see the need to do go arounds, and will do them until you're happy, but you're not willing to practice them with a CFI on board?

You are confused because of my own failure to communicate clearly.  The appropriate word to use is touch and go.  I really don't want to do them in the Mooney.  Too much happening too quickly.  Too easy to break the airplane for no real need.  I land and taxi back.  You'd think as old as I am I could communicate clearly.

[Andy95W]

Sorry if I was a bit too aggressive in my response...

[DXB]

I just ran across this AOPA case study of a J-bar Mooney that crashed with fatalities on go around, after seeing unexpected traffic on short final at the opposite end of the runway. The guy apparently climbed at a very low IAS upon go around, and then stalled/spun the instant he turned crosswind.   The plane left its gear down, and the author seems to advocate for pulling gear up as in a normal takeoff.  His analysis doesn't seem that great though, and I agree with some folks in this thread that there is at least a reasonable case for leaving the gear down in a J bar plane.      

https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/air-safety-institute/accident-analysis/featured-accidents/a-neglected-essential

My speculation on factors that might have contributed:

1. Leaving gear down might have produced too slow an IAS using the pitch attitude that the pilot was accustomed to with the gear up, and he failed to notice this.

2.  He forgot to normalize his nose up trim with flaps down from being on final, thus tending to produce too high a pitch when climbing with flaps up.  

3. He simply forgot to add right rudder when adding power and raising the nose, leaving him poised to spin when he stalled on his left crosswind turn

4. He got distracted by struggling with the J bar in a failed gear retraction attempt to the point that he lost track of fundamentals like pitch attitude, IAS, coordination

But that's all speculation- the two things that seem clear to me:(1) A go around is its own thing that requires special practice and consideration beyond a normal takeoff. (2) The speed sensitivity of J bar retraction adds a special twist that must be considered in advance.  This can include a planning to control speed to allow retraction or, if leaving it down, anticipating the performance change it produces.  I think most people with J bars retract quite early in a normal takeoff, and so such performance changes are a bit outside the usual experience.   

[gsxrpilot]

6 minutes ago, DXB said:

I just ran across this AOPA case study of a J-bar Mooney that crashed with fatalities on go around, after seeing unexpected traffic on short final at the opposite end of the runway. The guy apparently climbed at a very low IAS upon go around, and then stalled/spun the instant he turned crosswind.   The plane left its gear down, and the author seems to advocate for pulling gear up as in a normal takeoff.  His analysis doesn't seem that great though, and I agree with some folks in this thread that there is at least a reasonable case for leaving the gear down in a J bar plane.      

https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/air-safety-institute/accident-analysis/featured-accidents/a-neglected-essential

My speculation on factors that might have contributed:

1. Leaving gear down might have produced too slow an IAS using the pitch attitude that the pilot was accustomed to with the gear up, and he failed to notice this.

2.  He forgot to normalize his nose up trim with flaps down from being on final, thus tending to produce too high a pitch when climbing with flaps up.  

3. He simply forgot to add right rudder when adding power and raising the nose, leaving him poised to spin when he stalled on his left crosswind turn

4. He got distracted by struggling with the J bar in a failed gear retraction attempt to the point that he lost track of fundamentals like pitch attitude, IAS, coordination

But that's all speculation- the two things that seem clear to me:(1) A go around is its own thing that requires special practice and consideration beyond a normal takeoff. (2) The speed sensitivity of J bar retraction adds a special twist that must be considered in advance.  This can include a planning to control speed to allow retraction or, if leaving it down, anticipating the performance change it produces.  I think most people with J bars retract quite early in a normal takeoff, and so such performance changes are a bit outside the usual experience.   

Or to summarize... he panicked and forgot to fly the airplane.  

Keep Calm and Fly the Airplane

In the pattern and around the runway I expect to be able to take-off, fly, or land in virtually any configuration.  Gear up or down, from flaps full to none, trim up or down, and speeds from Vso to Vg.  Certainly there is an optimal configuration/speed for the best landing/take-off, etc.  But when things go to shit, I should still be able to calmly execute to a safe outcome.  A CFI and I just ran the scenario yesterday in my C. Set up for a short field landing, full flaps, full up trim, gear down and very slow... then go around.  Its a non-event.

 

[steingar]

Yeah, it really isn't rocket science.  If you have to go around fly the airplane.  Then again, folk shave bolluxed things simpler than that.

I might run into trouble if I try and do go around successively several times.  The gear swing can really turn my arm to jello if done too quickly too many times.  I doubt I'll be doing successive landings at the same airport, the way one might in a trainer.  Then again, I don't really see the need to do so.

[BDPetersen]

The fixed gear M20D seemed to fly, go-around and touch & go just fine.

[luv737s]

Just my 2 Cents worth...many of my students leave the gear down for pattern work,  plane doesn't care and there is plenty of power even in my C.  Of course I am not flying out of Leadville Colorado in the summer!!,  but in most cases if you forget or can't get the gear up,  first climb to a safe altitude,  than slooow down (80),  and than retract the gear.  I think wrestling with the gear at low altitude is a set up for an accident. 

Mike

 

 

 

[bradp]

2 hours ago, luv737s said:

Just my 2 Cents worth...many of my students leave the gear down for pattern work,  plane doesn't care and there is plenty of power even in my C.  Of course I am not flying out of Leadville Colorado in the summer!!,  but in most cases if you forget or can't get the gear up,  first climb to a safe altitude,  than slooow down (80),  and than retract the gear.  I think wrestling with the gear at low altitude is a set up for an accident. 

Mike

 

 

 

Only in maximum performance climb does gear retraction matter so much.  With the observations that this aircraft may have struck the wingtip (which was later proven to not be the case), you might hypothesize that he was slow in ground effect trying to get the airplane to climb but there's not really evidence presented to support that.   

I've found that flap position much more than gear position has an effect on climb performance.  Full flaps and the Mooney climbs like an absolute dog.  Moderately loaded in any density altitude and you eek out climb performance.  I know this from incorrectly adjusted flap motor stops that resulted in binding in the extended position.   I only noticed it on a go-around because landing would bump them loose.   I found that there was not so much climb gradient. Once airspeed was sufficient to push the flaps back up, then they retracted.   A simple adjustment fixed the problem, but since then I've formed the habit that in any condition where landing is not assured, I tend towards takeoff flaps for landing so I'm already set up for a go around.   This will also keep your trim position reasonably close to that needed for takeoff.  I've started to assume shit will break at the most inopportune of times, because that's when shit tends to break.

 

The critical question in this particular scenario is whether max performance was necessary or not.  If not necessary and sufficient safety margin time can be taken to clean up the bird.  The author has something to the statement that this is a non emergency situation that was converted to an accident in part because it may have been treated as an emergency. 

I can only imagine that control primacy may have been compromised if there were a lot of whole body movements to retrim manually and pull the gear in manually in a rushed fashion.  Pity. 

Every once in a while I try to practice a go around.  It's good for the soul. 

[carusoam]

Some thoughts I put together while reading MS at dinner.... (PP ideas as usual, not a CFI)

 

1) Actively fly the plane.  Don't allow it to fly you...

2) trim vs flaps is a challenge as power goes from idle to full.  Full flaps and full power in, the nose points skywards unless held level with a fair amount of pressure.  Training/Practice is the only way to get a feeling for the amount of pressure required)

3) gear up or down is a step along the way. The gear doors have a fair amount of drag that the M20D didn't get.

4) one hand on the yoke, the other on the trim, third on the flap valve and a fourth on the J-bar....

5) It is good to have the flap valve working properly, so the flaps retract slowly towards the T/O position.  You don't want them dumping all the lift in one second.  Same challenge for dirty position sensors, get them cleaned and working properly to know what you have set.

6) There is plenty of power (180 - 310hp) to overcome the drag of the gear and the flaps.  Don't let the attitude and it's excessive climb start robbing power before getting everything cleaned up.

7) adding power gently over time is better than pushing the throttle in as fast as possible.  Continue to fly the plane as you make adjustments...

8) Be smooth and methodical.

9) never stop flying the plane.  Maintain the attitude even when it takes a lot of force to do so.

Again, thoughts of a PP, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[Immelman]

Your right arm is in for a workout. Not just from the gear but because you have several important tasks.

My suggested order:

1. Power.

2. Trim wheel

3. Gear

4. Partial flap retraction... If you have manual flaps, practice what it takes to retract half-flaps. Maybe a 1-mississippi on the flap selector and then back down to hold half flaps

5. More trim

6. When you have a good climb stabilized: flaps up, and more trim

7. Cowl flaps

Meanwhile your left arm is holding the proper pitch attitude (significant forward elevator until clean and trimmed)

Here's my reasoning:

Fly the airplane: Power, pitch, trim... you're inducing a lot of nose-up with the power application. Working the gear is a small distraction but you don't want the pitch running away from you, so I suggest using your right hand to first get some nose-down trim in before working the gear.

Once things are under control, use your muscles and retract the gear. Lift weights if you need to... None of this push the nose over business. Its a go-around: You may need to extract maximum performance from the airplane one day to avoid an accident - maybe in a high density altitude situation. Pushing the nose down to help raise the gear goes against that. Practice doing it the right way every time, and then if the day comes, doing it the right way is muscle memory. IMHO.

Cowl flaps/Cooling the engine... that can wait a good 20-30 seconds until the airplane is clean, climbing away, and trimmed. Your cylinders won't heat excessively during that time.

Edited June 3, 2016 by Immelman

[steingar]

12 hours ago, luv737s said:

Just my 2 Cents worth...many of my students leave the gear down for pattern work,  plane doesn't care and there is plenty of power even in my C. 

I certainly can't argue with this approach prima faciae, I just dislike doing practice in a different way than I would do the real thing.  The only time I did successive landings at the same airport was during a flight for nighttime currency, and I had enough problems to force me back to my home drome for the landings.  I managed it, but as you can imagine my arm was tired afterwards.  I doubt I could have done it for 5 or 6 landings.

[gsxrpilot]

I gotta disagree a little. BTW Immelmann, do you fly a C with manual gear? Your profile is a bit lacking in details.

1. Full Power/Right Rudder

2. Trim

3. Flaps (reduce from full to take-off)

4. Nothing else until clear of the danger or comfortably back at pattern altitude.

There isn't any need to touch the cowl flaps as they should be open for landing anyway. There also isn't any need to raise the gear. And by the way, you're much more dangerous trying to muscle the gear, then using a quick push on the yoke. But then if it's an emergency situation, there isn't any reason to raise the gear. Any Mooney will climb to patter altitude with the gear out. Once comfortably established in the pattern, you've got all the time in the world to slow to a comfortable speed, where one can swing the bar without difficulty.

And BTW lifting weights has nothing to do with it. I'm 250 and easily bench my weight. At Vx it's extremely difficult and at Vy impossible to muscle the gear into position.

[Immelman]

On 6/3/2016 at 5:49 AM, gsxrpilot said:

I gotta disagree a little. BTW Immelmann, do you fly a C with manual gear? Your profile is a bit lacking in details.

 

I fly a 66E for fun and an A320 for work

I am a creature of habit. "Positive rate.... gear up". But I do believe in maximum performance on the go around/missed. Get the airplane stable, and climbing away with most of the trim force taken care of first, then gear... I think we agree more than we disagree

Edited June 7, 2016 by Immelman

[Hank]

Positive rate, gear up works for my electric gear. If you're too fast, give a little more Up Elevator and you'll slow right down. Then raise the gear and get some free climb out if it, allowing you to relax the elevator some, get some speed and lower your climb rate a little but still more than with gear down.