M20C down in Wichita 3/18

[KSMooniac]

http://www.kake.com/home/headlines/2-hurt-when-small-plane-crashes-in-northeast-Wichita-372604372.html

The weather guy in the video clip linked is a pilot and does a great job talking about the crash...rare in today's regular media!

It is a 66 C model that has been a rental here for many, many years.  I can't remember if it had shoulder harness retrofitted or not.  Apparently there was an engine failure of some sort on approach and it landed under control.  Hopefully both occupants will be fine.  It is always nice to see a Mooney cabin fully intact after a forced landing.

[aviatoreb]

7 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

http://www.kake.com/home/headlines/2-hurt-when-small-plane-crashes-in-northeast-Wichita-372604372.html

The weather guy in the video clip linked is a pilot and does a great job talking about the crash...rare in today's regular media!

It is a 66 C model that has been a rental here for many, many years.  I can't remember if it had shoulder harness retrofitted or not.  Apparently there was an engine failure of some sort on approach and it landed under control.  Hopefully both occupants will be fine.  It is always nice to see a Mooney cabin fully intact after a forced landing.

Kudos to the pilot.  Looks like a good forced landing in a well chosen location.  Speedy recovery.

Before I opened the thread Scott - I saw Mooney down in Wichita and I instantly worried it was you!  Glad it wasn't.

[1524J]

From the report it sounds as though some of the injuries are serious. Hope these kids are able to make a full recovery. Good job picking a spot to set her down. 

[N33GG]

I have to wonder how a 17 or 18 year old has a lot of experience... I guess I'm just envious.

Obviously they handled it quite well, and I hope they have a rapid recovery.  Great job, and score for teens!

[Oldguy]

21 hours ago, N33GG said:

I have to wonder how a 17 or 18 year old has a lot of experience... I guess I'm just envious.

Obviously they handled it quite well, and I hope they have a rapid recovery.  Great job, and score for teens!

One of the 18 YO kids at a local airport had over 1,000 hours before he entered college. When he got old enough to get into trouble - but before he did -  his dad bought an airplane and had him take lessons. Preferred him hanging out at the airport than elsewhere. Fast forward 4 years and he is graduating with an aerospace engineering degree, working on his ATP and has two flying job offers in his pocket.

Wish I had been smart enough to get my parents to do that!

[N33GG]

I didn't have any spare money when I was 18, and my parents had no interest in helping me with my desire to fly.  Paid my way through college working offshore rigs in the summers, and sold plasma twice a week to pay for flying lessons.  Not complaining, you just have to play the hand you are dealt.  Like I said, I'm just envious!

[Shadrach]

505NM trip with strong headwinds.  I wonder how much fuel remains at the crash sight.

[Loogie]

I just flew a 500nm leg the other day w some headwind.  In my M20J I used 45 gallons, 19 gal reserve.  I would imagine a C can make it as well w some less fuel? Off course if the total the C holds is 52gl I would imagine you would want to have at least 8 gal at the destination (not sure how much is a min comfy number to land a C with).  Certainly sounds within its capability to fly a long leg like that, especially with a good fuel flow gauge/totalizer.  Hopefully that wasn't the issue.

[gsxrpilot]

On a 500nm flight in a C, fuel management certainly is important. IF leaned out properly, IF a good fuel totalizer or engine monitor is in use so precise calculations are possible, IF those calculations are correct with regards to the amount of fuel in each tank, and IF the fuel selector is on the correct tank, A C will do 500 nm just about regardless of the wind.  But there are a lot of IF's.

[N33GG]

A C is not as efficient as a J.  It would be very tight.

[gsxrpilot]

Just now, N33GG said:

A C is not as efficient as a J.  It would be very tight.

I've done over 500 nm many times in my C and I've never added more than 40 gal on landing. This is often with a head wind. With a no wind average, I easily go over 700 nm and still don't burn more than 40 of my 52 gal.

[MyNameIsNobody]

Only time I ran a tank dry was with my mom coming back from Arkansas.  She pitching in $100 for return trip and I was a goof and didn't top the tanks...(This was pre re-seal and fuel left in tanks would seep)...anyway, winds were NOT as forecast.  When I got set-up in cruise I told my mom "we are going to have to stop and get fuel"...I was heading for Washington (about 30 minutes from destination) and going to fly pattern.  Left tank sputtered.  Switched to right tank.  Uneventful.  I had 30-45 minutes of fuel in left tank.  Had I tried to "push it" I could have been this guy...IF it is fuel exhaustion.  Post seal I am a full tanks guy as mission is usually my wife and I dog and baggage.  Hope he didn't run 'em dry.  Tough lesson for a 17 year old.  Glad they walked away OK.  REALLY bad decision if he tried to push it.

[Shadrach]

36 minutes ago, Loogie said:

I just flew a 500nm leg the other day w some headwind.  In my M20J I used 45 gallons, 19 gal reserve.  I would imagine a C can make it as well w some less fuel? Off course if the total the C holds is 52gl I would imagine you would want to have at least 8 gal at the destination (not sure how much is a min comfy number to land a C with).  Certainly sounds within its capability to fly a long leg like that, especially with a good fuel flow gauge/totalizer.  Hopefully that wasn't the issue.

While a good C will come pretty close to a J in block times. A J is not a C.  25-30kt winds and now it's doing 110 to 115kts across the ground at 10.5gph +/- a gallon. If he flew a ruler straight direct route that's 48ish gallons out of 52 usable. If he forgot to lean or took a more scenic route than direct, it's entirely plausible that all useable fuel could have been exhausted.

[N201MKTurbo]

I hope they have renters insurance...

[bonal]

We are assuming the tanks would be completely full at departure that being the case with a 9000 ft climb I can go 600nm with a one hour reserve in a no wind condition with a 25 knot headwind it goes 543nm. Personally I hope it was fuel exhaustion because of all the possible engine out causes this one is the one that can be avoided by proper flight planning. Yes it would reflect badly on this pilot but something I can prevent from ever happening. I'm just glad they are going to be ok. It was nice to hear the report by the pilot weatherman. But did you notice the stupid question asked of the police officer about damage to the golf course stupid reporters always trying to make a story even when this had a good outcome.

[Shadrach]

53 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I've done over 500 nm many times in my C and I've never added more than 40 gal on landing. This is often with a head wind. With a no wind average, I easily go over 700 nm and still don't burn more than 40 of my 52 gal.

True, but I bet you're well instrumented, able to easily calculate your range on the spot and see in real time what sort of miserly power setting it will take to get you to your destination. I'm doubting this aircraft or its pilot were doing those sorts of calculations in real time.

[aviatoreb]

There is an article in TODAY's Nytimes about teenagers and driving.  A few sobering statistics - a person's most dangerous time of life is between 16-17 because of cars.  And the chance of a new driver if the driver is a boy, having an accident, jumps by 44% if there is a non family other boy in the car.

This accident is likely not that but it made me think of it when I saw the article today.

[gsxrpilot]

Just now, Shadrach said:

True, but I bet you're well instruments and able to easily calculate your range on the spot and see in real time what sort of miserly power setting it will take to get you to your destination. I'm doubting this aircraft or its pilot were doing those sorts of calculations in real time.

Truth! I recently did a 720nm non-stop flight in my C. I kept meticulous records of fuel burn throughout the flight. I worked the mixture/carb heat/RPM over the course of the first two hours of the flight to get down to a 7.8gph burn. And late in the flight when ATC told me to descend 500 ft for traffic, I was temped to say "unable" as I didn't want to have to burn the fuel to climb back up the 500 ft. But I couldn't think of a reason that ATC would accept. So I descended about 300 ft very slowly until cleared to climb again. I burned 40 gal exactly over the 5.0 hours of flight time.

It can be done, but as you say, it requires diligence. 

[N201MKTurbo]

Not all 17 YOs are created the same.

About 10 years ago my wife and I were returning from Florida in the Mooney and stopped in Baton Rouge. We went on an air boat tour at a place about 30 miles south of NO. The tour guide and boat operator was 17. I was amazed at how technically proficient he was at operating that awesome powerful craft and how careful he operated it. It was a 10 seat boat with a NASCAR motor and a 20 blade composite propeller. I felt like we were in the hands of a total professional. He said he had been driving airboats sense he was 5.

The most amazing thing he did was to pick up some people who were late for the tour. We picked them up on the side of the freeway. He drove the boat with six passengers out of the water into a park, across the paved parking lot, up a 30 foot grassy hill to the shoulder of the freeway. He made this look like it was no big deal.

[Shadrach]

34 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Not all 17 YOs are created the same.

About 10 years ago my wife and I were returning from Florida in the Mooney and stopped in Baton Rouge. We went on an air boat tour at a place about 30 miles south of NO. The tour guide and boat operator was 17. I was amazed at how technically proficient he was at operating that awesome powerful craft and how careful he operated it. It was a 10 seat boat with a NASCAR motor and a 20 blade composite propeller. I felt like we were in the hands of a total professional. He said he had been driving airboats sense he was 5.

The most amazing thing he did was to pick up some people who were late for the tour. We picked them up on the side of the freeway. He drove the boat with six passengers out of the water into a park, across the paved parking lot, up a 30 foot grassy hill to the shoulder of the freeway. He made this look like it was no big deal.

Proficiency does not equal judgement. I was technically proficient at riding motorcycles and driving cars at 17. I could heal and toe downshift and was very comfortable at 7-8/10ths of my vehicles capability. I also won my fare share of wheelie contests on everything from XR80s to liter sport bikes. However, my judgement was for $hit and I'm lucky that I made it to 20.  So many things were out of my control in my teens. Taking control of a machine and operating it at a high level made me feel like something was under my control. I was completely addicted to performace (A vice that's not entirely been exercised). Very young and inexperienced men won the Second World War flying machines that today are considered more challenging to fly by experienced old timers..

[N201MKTurbo]

Just now, Shadrach said:

I was technically proficient at riding motorcycles and driving cars at 17. I could heal and toe downshift and was very comfortable at 7-8/10ths of my vehicles capacity. I also won my fare share of wheelie contests on everything from XR80s to liter sport bikes. But my judgement was for $hit and I'm lucky I made to to 20.

I still have friends from my youth when we used to hot rod around in cars. There is one that I am still uncomfortable riding with...

[KSMooniac]

To my knowledge this plane didn't have any engine monitor or fuel totalizer. You have wonder if it was flown at full rental power as well...

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

[bonal]

I started solo 2 auto cross at age 18 with a car that I modified from tip to tail and did quite well when I was in my late thirties I started racing sprint Karts and most of the kids I raced against were 16 to 18 years old. Physically controlling a vehicle is not the real concern when it comes to cross country flying but having good judgment about all the things that can cause problems with a flight. Couple that with the sense of immortality that comes with youth there is a real a real possibility for a bad outcome with respect to aviation

[bonal]

Since the airplane is basically intact I'm sure the first thing they will check is for fuel in the tanks.

[Hank]

2 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

On a 500nm flight in a C, fuel management certainly is important. IF leaned out properly, IF a good fuel totalizer or engine monitor is in use so precise calculations are possible, IF those calculations are correct with regards to the amount of fuel in each tank, and IF the fuel selector is on the correct tank, A C will do 500 nm just about regardless of the wind.  But there are a lot of IF's.

Hmmm . . . My C doesn't have any of that. I routinely fly 400nm on about 30 gal. Fuel change is by the yoke clock; totalizer is on the fuel pump when I land. Never put in more than 40 gal, and that was going way around icing conditions, into the wind the whole way. 4:40 flight time going home, after 2.5 hours outbound. 

Guess I'm an accident waiting to happen?  I think not.