Backup AI?

[Godfather]

Currently using a ki256 and a mid continent lifesaver gyro w/o backup battery.  No problems whatsoever with the ki but I'm looking to upgrade.  I'd really like to pick up the Aspen but what are the rules regarding backup batteries.  I have a 28 volt system, two batteries checked carefully every year, and a backup alternator.  From a quick glance it appears that even though the Aspen comes with a battery what I have is not enough for the FAA...?

Not interested in another backup battery nor keeping the ki going forever...really looking forward to some good deals at s&f and osh this summer.

[carusoam]

The X-Aspen engineer just (within days) outlined the requirements and logic for the battery backup they used for the two Aspen system.

His post is around here somewhere...

Screen Name Peter.

The power of MooneySpace..!

Best regards,

-a-

[Godfather]

Thank you for the link!  So trying to understand the first link... Can I call the non battery lifesaver gyro the main AI and consider the Aspen which has a battery backup the secondary?

[LANCECASPER]

I thought what made the Lifesaver the Lifesaver was the battery backup. If you have it, there's your backup to the Aspen. If your battery needs replacing, the least expensive method is to buy the three batteries that make up the battery pack for about $15 each and plug them together. No splicing required and you are legal to replace the battery yourself.

http://www.lifesavergyro.com/lifesaver-gyro/#

Edited March 3, 2016 by LANCECASPER

[KSMooniac]

I have the Lifesaver with battery and agree with Lance.  MCICO's price on the replacement is NUTS, but the guts of it consist of 3 off-the-shelf cells that you can easily replace (or your mechanic).  I've done it twice now already.  In your case, the easiest path might be to have the battery provision added to your existing gyro.  It is a great instrument.

[FoxMike]

I have looked into the Aspen as a replacement for the KI256.  I have gone so far to one call of the Aspen Reps.  I installed a Sandia 340 a few months ago.  My question to the Aspen rep was would it meet the specs set out in the install manual as a standby.  Aspen guy said yes it would.  I have talked to a couple of shops and they are not so sure.  Crux of the matter seems to be the judgement of the installer and his FSDO inspector as to whether the standby has a failure point similar to the Aspen and if it were to occur would render both artificial horizons useless.  The number of batteries and alternators on board your airplane is not a part of the decision. 

Edited March 3, 2016 by FoxMike
left out word

[KSMooniac]

I believe as long as each unit has it's own battery backup (as each Aspen unit does, or the LifeSaver+battery) then they meet the requirements since an electrical failure won't bring down the unit(s) with their own backups.  There have been a few J's go to an all-electric configuration, even with the single ship battery and alternator, using Aspen units.

[Cruiser]

Aspen primary STC requires separate AI for backup. Any of the vacuum AIs that are approved for install in the Mooney will work (this is a completely separate approval process). Any electric AI that has an approved battery backup will also work (this is a completely separate approval process).

The issue with using an Aspen as a backup is in the use of the pitot/static system. any failure in that will be common to all Aspen units. So if the primary AI is not an Aspen then I don't see any problem with using the Aspen as a backup. 

[Godfather]

When the lifesaver was purchased the battery was not added...I think the price difference was around 800-1k when I was looking 10 years ago.  Not sure if it can be upgraded but I'd rather spend the money elsewhere...

So as I read the links and responses here two Aspen units cannot be used because they have a single point of failure.  The Aspen AI cannot be installed as the primary because it needs a vacuum AI or a battery backup electric AI.  Can the Mooney legally fly ifr with a non battery electric AI instead of the ki256 ( I know the ap would not work with this setup) or is the certification based on both vac and electric being used at the same time?

As I read the FAA letter above the electric AI can replace the vac AI making it primary and therefore the the Aspen could be a backup.  Especially since I'm keeping the rest of the six pack so the airspeed and altitude would not be necessary.

 

[Cruiser]

1 hour ago, Godfather said:

snip,,,,

As I read the FAA letter above the electric AI can replace the vac AI making it primary and therefore the the Aspen could be a backup.  Especially since I'm keeping the rest of the six pack so the airspeed and altitude would not be necessary.

 

or vice versa, if the electric AI is a legal replacement for the vacuum AI then the Aspen can be primary.

[mike_elliott]

On ‎3‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 1:35 PM, carusoam said:

The X-Aspen engineer just (within days) outlined the requirements and logic for the battery backup they used for the two Aspen system.

His post is around here somewhere...

Screen Name Peter.

The power of MooneySpace..!

Best regards,

-a-

The Ex Aspen engineer was the founder of Aspen, Peter Lyons. His Mooney was the first Aspen equipped Mooney. I think I was #2, way back when.

[carusoam]

Craig went with the three panel version in his X J.  Being one of the first to go on the leading edge of removing the vacuum system.

Marauder has done fantastic marketing videos of how these things work and display incredible amounts of data in the real IMCMooney world.

Mike, please don't show pictures of the Bravo IP full of Aspen screens.  I don't think I can take the modern world passing me by.

I have vivid indelible memories of Don K's Garmin pictures...

Is your Bravo going to be available at the Mooney summit?  Seeing it first hand, won't help me much either...

 

Best regards,

-a-

[mike_elliott]

Ill be there with the Bravo, my wife will be driving up with the wine  and other door prizes. She is a keeper! The Aspen I put in as #2 was in my former F model, now owned by Maj. Phil Bies. There is only one Aspen in the Bravo, Anthony, and it still has its vacuum system. It does have the Lynx 9000+ that talks to all the garmin/aspen/ipad stuff. Maybe if I could put a G3 in as a backup AI.......

[donkaye]

On March 10, 2016 at 9:22 AM, mike_elliott said:

The Ex Aspen engineer was the founder of Aspen, Peter Lyons. His Mooney was the first Aspen equipped Mooney. I think I was #2, way back when.

 

On March 10, 2016 at 10:37 AM, mike_elliott said:

Ill be there with the Bravo, my wife will be driving up with the wine  and other door prizes. She is a keeper! The Aspen I put in as #2 was in my former F model, now owned by Maj. Phil Bies. There is only one Aspen in the Bravo, Anthony, and it still has its vacuum system. It does have the Lynx 9000+ that talks to all the garmin/aspen/ipad stuff. Maybe if I could put a G3 in as a backup AI.......

 

On March 10, 2016 at 10:10 AM, carusoam said:

I have vivid indelible memories of Don K's Garmin pictures...

Then you'll want to see my latest upgrade that is supposed to be completed on Monday.  I'm replacing my backup ESI 2000 with the ESI 500.  Although a slightly smaller screen, it has Navigation (ILS/VOR/GPS/LPV) and SVT.  With the G500 I had no certified backup Navigation.  Now I will.

[mike_elliott]

1 hour ago, donkaye said:

 

 

Then you'll want to see my latest upgrade that is supposed to be completed on Monday.  I'm replacing my backup ESI 2000 with the ESI 500.  Although a slightly smaller screen, it has Navigation (ILS/VOR/GPS/LPV) and SVT.  With the G500 I had no certified backup Navigation.  Now I will.

Did not know it would also do ILS/LOC functions. Fantastic!

[donkaye]

30 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

Did not know it would also do ILS/LOC functions. Fantastic!

One surprise that I hadn't counted on was that it only accepts one ILS/VOR input and One GPS input, therefore, I needed a rather elaborate switch to switch between the 750 and 650, since 4 wires are required for each Nav unit.

[Godfather]

48 minutes ago, donkaye said:

One surprise that I hadn't counted on was that it only accepts one ILS/VOR input and One GPS input, therefore, I needed a rather elaborate switch to switch between the 750 and 650, since 4 wires are required for each Nav unit.

Since the unit is a backup why not just wire the 650 to it directly?  Currently have the 750>HSI and 650>CDI.  This means the 650 is just along for the ride most of the time but I was curious why the need for cross feed.  I look at a switch as another potential failure point...

[donkaye]

4 minutes ago, Godfather said:

Since the unit is a backup why not just wire the 650 to it directly?  Currently have the 750>HSI and 650>CDI.  This means the 650 is just along for the ride most of the time but I was curious why the need for cross feed.  I look at a switch as another potential failure point...

That could be said for every switch on the G500.  The options I'll have of any of 4 Nav inputs outweighs the unlikely failure of the switch.  Even if it did fail, at least 2 inputs would be tied to the ESI 500 and it would be pretty easy to figure out which ones they were.   On top of that, with the much more expensive ESI 2000 that is in there now I have no Nav inputs.

I was able to sell the ESI 2000 for just a little less than I paid for it, so the swap is mostly labor, which is a 2 day affair.

[Tmack201]

Sounds like a lot of you have made significant improvements to your panels. Please include pictures so the rest of us can salivate over them. I'm wanting to go all electric in my 1992 J model and would love to see what you fellows have done!

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard, Flipper.

Best regards,

-a-

[donkaye]

My ESI 500 installation was completed yesterday.  Here are a couple of videos made on the way home.  One is level flight and the other is on approach to Livermore.  I have the SVT and NAV enabled.

 

[Danb]

Sweet!

[Godfather]

Looks great Don.  The display on the ESI looks really nice!

[kortopates]

On 3/12/2016 at 11:46 AM, donkaye said:

Then you'll want to see my latest upgrade that is supposed to be completed on Monday.  I'm replacing my backup ESI 2000 with the ESI 500.  Although a slightly smaller screen, it has Navigation (ILS/VOR/GPS/LPV) and SVT.  With the G500 I had no certified backup Navigation.  Now I will.

Very nice Don. I am deciding myself between the your ESI 500 and SAI 340 and wondering if the extra cost of the ESI 500 is worth it for the backup GS. I am sure it is, but this all adds up$$  I was a little surprised by your comment about no certified backup nav because my interpretation is we have the raw data and CDI directly on both GPS's. What we're really lacking is a backup GS indicator if the G500 goes dark to do precision approaches. Although another CDI head could also fill that role, I certainly agree the ESI 500 is the far more elegant solution!! I am envious and I am seriously considering it - just $$.

[donkaye]

3 hours ago, kortopates said:

Very nice Don. I am deciding myself between the your ESI 500 and SAI 340 and wondering if the extra cost of the ESI 500 is worth it for the backup GS. I am sure it is, but this all adds up$$  I was a little surprised by your comment about no certified backup nav because my interpretation is we have the raw data and CDI directly on both GPS's. What we're really lacking is a backup GS indicator if the G500 goes dark to do precision approaches. Although another CDI head could also fill that role, I certainly agree the ESI 500 is the far more elegant solution!! I am envious and I am seriously considering it - just $$.

Of course you are right regarding the certified Nav.  I was referring to a Nav indicator, a second one of which I didn't have prior to the ESI 500.  The GPS is not really in my field of view for secondary Nav.  The ESI 500 is.

Regarding cost, yes, it is a few $ more, but the Nav function is only about an additional $600.  The SVT is more but was worth it to me.  The support from L3 is excellent.  Our questions were immediately answered.

One other thing is really nice about the SVT.  The terrain awareness color shading warning is much, much better than that the G500.  As I came into San Jose yesterday over the foothills, the shading went to yellow with red in the distance, while nothing showed on the G500.