My engine is talking to me - And I'm finally listening

[GeorgePerry]

So I've been a big believer in digital engine monitors and I've used them on both of my mooney's - First a JPI 700 on my F and now a EI CGR-30P on my S.  Although I've always been curious to download the data to see a graphical depiction, I've never gone beyond 'monitoring'  what the engine is doing during the flight.  I recently had a conversation with Mike Busch of (SAVVYAnalysis) and he convinced me to give it a try.  He said I could dump the data into his website for "FREE" and get a really nice graphical display.  Free is good so I figured what the heck?  The CGR-30P (as do most engine monitors) has download capability, but I wasn't excited about trying it.  To be honest I expected to get frustrated and waist hours fighting with unfriendly technology.  Happily I was wrong - It was really easy!  I'll put up a video of the process but to get graphs like the ones below, only took a few seconds to download on to a thumb drive and then transfer into the Savvy's website on my home computer (MAC).

Steps

1. Format a USB drive

2. Plug the USB into the USB port for the CGR-30P

3. Turn of the A/C Master to power up the CGR-30P

4. Hold the big knob down in the detent until the set up menu option appears.  Scroll down to "download" to a USB, select the # of flights to down load and hit "go"

5. Remove the USB, take it to a computer with internet access,

6. Open SavvyAnalysis website  https://www.savvyanalysis.com/home  and create a FREE profile for the analysis platform

7. Download the CSV files from the USB into Savvy's platform.

8. Open the "MY FLIGHTS" tab, select a flight and view the graphical display.  

 

This is an example of a recent 1+30 min flight from NC to MD.  Everything looks normal with  my #1 running a bit hotter CHT than the others.  EGT's are all running close to each other. 

 

[M20S Driver]

My Eagle's fight at 5500 feet is attached.  CHT #1 is one of the lowest ones.  I really like the Savvy charts

SavvyAnalysis - N2174J 2015-11-29 17_21.bmp

[kortopates]

That's great. Now we just need to sell you on the benefits of flying the Savvy Test profile discussed here: https://www.savvyanalysis.com/articles/in-flight-diagnostics Particularly the Gami spread and LOP Mag test, then we can tell much more about the health of your engine and well as diagnose many issues. The above article explains much of the diagnosis but for those wanting a professional to do it for them, we offer that at a very modest annual subscription fee. Whether you do it yourself or use us, we suggest you run the test profile for analysis before and after your annual at a minimum.

[N601RX]

Does the CGR-30 not include free software for plotting the data?  I've keep all my JPI files since the 1st test flight after overhaul.  

[aviatoreb]

I actually signed up for the engine monitoring service on SAAVY since they claim that they have software that analyzes every upload automatically and with the service they will notify you if their software detects "valve wobble" as a precursor to the engine "eating a valve".  Perhaps I am a sucker for a good sale - but it seemed like a good idea idea and a logical argument to me.

[Marauder]

I actually signed up for the engine monitoring service on SAAVY since they claim that they have software that analyzes every upload automatically and with the service they will notify you if their software detects "valve wobble" as a precursor to the engine "eating a valve".  Perhaps I am a sucker for a good sale - but it seemed like a good idea idea and a logical argument to me.

I bought it last year as well. Had an episode of "automatic rough" while IFR and had them look over the data. I renewed and will be sending them more files this year to keep monitoring things.

I am experiencing a strange mag check issue and will be sending them a file this week to see if they find anything.

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[kortopates]

Exactly right. Every uploaded flight gets the FEVA checks which can detect a burning exhaust valve. We contact you if your flight data generates FEVA alert and our FEVA analyst agrees. See https://www.savvyanalysis.com/content/feva/

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[Ratherbflying]

8 hours ago, kortopates said:

That's great. Now we just need to sell you on the benefits of flying the Savvy Test profile discussed here: https://www.savvyanalysis.com/articles/in-flight-diagnostics .

Very important. They found an intake leak and that my mags had split timing.

[Yetti]

Can someone explain what is meant by "burnt exhaust valve"  and "failing exhaust valve"?  Is this the guide is getting worn?  or the valve guide is getting coked and becoming stuck?

[bonal]

Failing exhaust valve seems a bit vague but in my experience a burnt valve is where the material on the valve surface burns away causing the face to no longer contact the seat. Once this occurs you no longer make normal compression in the cylinder. The face and seat are the ground surfaces on the valve and head (respectively) that form a seal in the combustion chamber.

[FloridaMan]

Keep in mind 

14 hours ago, kortopates said:

That's great. Now we just need to sell you on the benefits of flying the Savvy Test profile discussed here: https://www.savvyanalysis.com/articles/in-flight-diagnostics Particularly the Gami spread and LOP Mag test, then we can tell much more about the health of your engine and well as diagnose many issues. The above article explains much of the diagnosis but for those wanting a professional to do it for them, we offer that at a very modest annual subscription fee. Whether you do it yourself or use us, we suggest you run the test profile for analysis before and after your annual at a minimum.

Wonder if mine shows any sign of an impending failure before I lost #4 and stuffed it in. 

[Ratherbflying]

4 hours ago, Yetti said:

Can someone explain what is meant by "burnt exhaust valve"  and "failing exhaust valve"?  Is this the guide is getting worn?  or the valve guide is getting coked and becoming stuck?

http://www.avweb.com/news/savvyaviator/savvy_aviator_56_before_you_yank_that_jug-197497-1.html

Specifically, look at the engine monitor data under the section "Don't yank that jug".

[GeorgePerry]

20 hours ago, M20S Driver said:

My Eagle's fight at 5500 feet is attached.  CHT #1 is one of the lowest ones.  I really like the Savvy charts

SavvyAnalysis - N2174J 2015-11-29 17_21.bmp

I'm not sure why #1 is 50 deg hotter than the rest.  I'm going to look at the baffles and see if something's amiss

[Marauder]

Keep in mind 

14 hours ago, kortopates said: That's great. Now we just need to sell you on the benefits of flying the Savvy Test profile discussed here: https://www.savvyanalysis.com/articles/in-flight-diagnostics Particularly the Gami spread and LOP Mag test, then we can tell much more about the health of your engine and well as diagnose many issues. The above article explains much of the diagnosis but for those wanting a professional to do it for them, we offer that at a very modest annual subscription fee. Whether you do it yourself or use us, we suggest you run the test profile for analysis before and after your annual at a minimum.

Wonder if mine shows any sign of an impending failure before I lost #4 and stuffed it in. 

Didn't you have a JPI 900 onboard? We bought our units about the same time. Can you pull the data?

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[M20S Driver]

1 hour ago, GeorgePerry said:

I'm not sure why #1 is 50 deg hotter than the rest.  I'm going to look at the baffles and see if something's amiss

My CHT#1 and CHT#2 are usually the coldest.   I replaced the original baffles last year and the pattern of the CHT did not change.  

The GAMI spread is 0.4 GPH.

[carusoam]

We really like data.  Often, it shows us things that have been happening for a long time...  If only we could recognize it.

Some interesting riddling things in George's OP photos...

1) The #1 CHT is the hottest by around 25°F.  Is it generating more heat or dissipating less heat?

2) EGT1 doesn't stand out at all.  Indicating that it is probably generating a similar amount of heat as the others.

3) The hottest EGT-H is 1383°F at that moment in time...

4) The Ship's EGT gauge is clearly reading 1520°F, way North of the blue box and much higher than the EGT-H on the CGR.  The ship's TC is mounted downstream from the CGR's TC...

IO550 riddles:

1) What is the blue box used for on the ship's gauge? 

2) Why is George's ship's EGT reading so high?

If you have an IO550, you want to know these answers...

Sharing data like this is a really cool way to find out or understand things about your engine that you may not recognize on your own...

I wish my data was as easy to get as George describes.  (JPI700)

Some engine monitors also include FF readings during leaning.  This piece of data can help the pilot identify a blockage in a single fuel injector.

Hot EGTs are often a loss of a spark plug. Fuel burn continues past the valve...

Cold EGTs require the loss of two spark plugs. (Unlikely) or a loss of compression.  (More likely)

Thanks for sharing your ideas, George and MSers,

Best regards,

-a-

[rbridges]

this was cool.  I loaded my UBG16 data, and it's really nice seeing a graph instead of an excel spreadsheet.  How many of you guys are doing the engine analysis with them?  Have they given you any feedback that you couldn't already see for yourself?

[DXB]

 

On December 31, 2015 at 0:29 AM, kortopates said:

Exactly right. Every uploaded flight gets the FEVA checks which can detect a burning exhaust valve. We contact you if your flight data generates FEVA alert and our FEVA analyst agrees. See https://www.savvyanalysis.com/content/feva/

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As a JPI 900 owner and subscriber to this service, I'm curious to know the sensitivity of the FEVA analysis for impending exhaust valve failure- i.e. is there any data  on percent of exhaust valves that show up this way, with a reasonable lead time, before they croak?  And thus how much assurance does a normal  analysis provide?  

 

Though my analysis looked ok, and my compressions were fine at recent annual with no audible exhaust leak,  I still insisted they borescope to look for a burnt valve.  I'm fidgety about this because I had to have a cylinder with a burnt valve / bad valve guide discovered at prebuy IRAN'd.  This is one of the reasons I was eager to get the JPI put in subsequently.

[M016576]

One of the features I find myself using now is the "normalized" view- the CGR-30P learns the normal values of the cht's and egt's and baselines each cylinder.  The digital graph shows the normal relation between cylinders, rather than a graph of the actual value.  That way, if a cylinder is failing, I can recognize it instantly (as the bar for CHT or EGT will be higher or lower than all the others).  The actual value for each cylinder scrolls digitally across the bottom of the display.

 

Cylinder 1 is closest to the firewall on the right side on an IO-550-A.  My guess for the slightly higher CHT is baffling either folded over or not dealing up against the cowling.  Might be able to snip the material, or adjust it a little to drop the cht 5-10 degrees.

 

ive been uploading plots to savvy as well- I have a huge collection of those excel files.  I've been meaning to build some charts, but the savvy program is more than enough for my purposes.

[aviatoreb]

On December 31, 2015 at 0:29 AM, kortopates said:

Exactly right. Every uploaded flight gets the FEVA checks which can detect a burning exhaust valve. We contact you if your flight data generates FEVA alert and our FEVA analyst agrees. See https://www.savvyanalysis.com/content/feva/

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So I take it you work for them?

I am curious - how often/many times per year are you guys actually finding smoking guns and calling people to stop flying and get their engine checked asap?

[kortopates]

Yes Erik, I did your last analysis a few months ago - I do the Mooneys and many of the turbo engines.

I can't quote any statistics as I am away on a flying vacation in South Florida right now from CA. We have an analyst, Colleen, dedicated to the FEVA alerts. She responds to a few every month but given the amount of flight data we process the rate of occurrence is very low as you would expect - sorry I can't quantify that from memory. What I can say is we get false positives and negative and continue to tune the algorithm. The really good news I can convey is that we have had some success with early saves. If caught early enough, the exhaust valve can be dressed in situ with the problem being corrected before the valve becomes burnt. What's happening is that the valves ceases to rotate normally which causes the irregular signature. If dressed in time so that it rotates normally again it saves the valve and the cylinder. Early detection is key though and it's frustrating to both us and our clients when they only load their data sporadically and then we only detect the problem after its too late.

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Edited January 3, 2016 by kortopates

[Yetti]

So Burnt valve would be a valve sticking open?  Letting the hot compression gases escape?   So would maybe also be a sticking valve?

[aviatoreb]

57 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Yes Erik, I did your last analysis a few months ago - I do the Mooneys and many of the turbo engines.

I can't quote any statistics as I am away on a flying vacation in South Florida right now from CA. We have an analyst, Colleen, dedicated to the FEVA alerts. She responds to a few every month but given the amount of flight data we process the rate of occurrence is very low as you would expect - sorry I can't quantify that from memory. What I can say is we get false positives and negative and continue to tune the algorithm. The really good news I can convey is that we have had some success with early saves. If caught early enough, the exhaust valve can be dressed in situ with the problem being corrected before the valve becomes burnt. What's happening is that the valves ceases to rotate normally which causes the irregular signature. If dressed in time so that it rotates normally again it saves the valve and the cylinder. Early detection is key though and it's frustrating to both us and our clients when they only load their data and we only detect the problem after its too late.

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Hey!  That's really neat Paul.  Glad to make your acquaintance.

[DaV8or]

Christ! I for one can't wait to get better batteries and electric motors in our planes. I hope I live long enough. This finicky, unreliable steam engine tech from the 19th century really grates on me sometimes. Particularly because our lives depend on it.

Anyhow, rant and thread drift over. Continue as you were. 

[Marauder]

Christ! I for one can't wait to get better batteries and electric motors in our planes. I hope I live long enough. This finicky, unreliable steam engine tech from the 19th century really grates on me sometimes. Particularly because our lives depend on it.

Anyhow, rant and thread drift over. Continue as you were. 

LOL! I even think the newer technology (experimental) guys are still struggling with "modern" technology. The RV guy down a couple of hangars from me had his cowling and prop off of his Toyota engine more times this year than I have in the last 10 years.

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