help landing Ovation 3

[kj2016]

I am the new owner of ovation 3 2007. I tend to bounce on my landings. I am trimmed all the way back. and  I am 71knots over the numbers. Any suggestions from the ovation 3 pilots? I am not sure if I am flaring bit too high. Help? Thanks

[gsengle]

Hitting the nose wheel or ballooning in the flare?

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[kj2016]

I am landing on the mains for sure ! What is the usual speed just before starting flare on Ovation 3. I am either coming too speed or flaring little bit too high or lifting the nose bit too high?

[carusoam]

K,

I think you started more than one thread on the same topic.  It may cause some confusion...

You may want to end one or reference the other...

Best regards,

-a-

[StevenL757]

(re-posting and editing slightly in the "Modern Mooney" forum...)

Where are you located, and have you taken any type-specific training in the airplane?

2500 hours or not, a Mooney (specifically the long bodies such as the Ovation) requires you to fly it exactly "by the numbers".  It will forgive nothing.  It is unlike flying a Cessna, Piper, Beech, or anything else related.  In the landing flare, the airplane will tell you when it no longer wants to fly.  If you are even as much as Ref+2 over the fence, you'll most likely bounce, which is a precursor to a prop strike.  You want the stall warning to come on immediately before touchdown...this is a tell-tale sign of a good Mooney landing.

In addition to any number of knowledgeable people on this forum, I suggest you find a MAPA-affiliated CFI to help you get past this hurdle so you can make peace with your airplane and your landings.

Good luck,

Steve

[kj2016]

thanks! I am planning to have a instructor! I found landing bit challenging to learn on my own.

[carusoam]

We know some qualified Mooney instructors.  We would need to know your approximate location to make a recommendation.

Banging up a new to you airplane without transition training is not highly recommended...

Typical Mooney landing issues start with a bounce. Trying to save the landing turns into a series of bounces increasing in magnitude. The last one strikes the prop and tears open your wallet at the same time.

a pilot trying to save his wallet, usually goes around after the first bounce.

coming in too fast turns into a long float down the runway. An untrained pilot had a tendency to drop the nose slightly towards the runway. Bounce #1 begins...

I'm only a PP, but have been through the transition training and MAPA training a couple of times.

Transition training is a two or three day affair.  It is often combined with an IFR flight to bring the plane home...

Some people get the feeling that they have flown something bigger, faster or more expensive and the transition should not be so hard.  The truth is more in line with it is different than the other planes and is best to run through the training protocol to avoid bouncing a 300AMU machine until it breaks...

Go get your skills tuned up, Long Body Mooney Style!  Then find a Mooney fly-in near you.

Best regards,

-a-

[kj2016]

thanks!  for the advice. will get the training. I read up every single article on line about landing mooney but I have someone lined up at Santa Monica with Mooney experience to teach me the landings!

[donkaye]

32 minutes ago, Kuljit hundal said:

thanks! I am planning to have a instructor! I found landing bit challenging to learn on my own.

I recommend my landing video:

http://www.donkaye.com/donkaye.com/Perfect_Your_Landings.html

Landings are easy when done as I demonstrate.  If your speed it correct, then your descent rate is too great if you are bouncing.  When you get good, even if you choose to come in a little faster, for example in a night landing with a longer runway, you can grease it on with some power, then at touchdown, reduce power to idle and pop the speed breaks to assist in slo down.

[jhbehrens]

Hi Kuljit, I fly a 310 HP Eagle which is the same airframe and engine combination and I had the same issue initially. I can recommend Don's landing video and also various other articles and numbers on his website eg http://donkaye.com/donkaye.com/Bounced_Landings.html or http://donkaye.com/donkaye.com/Precision_Flying.html#10

The key thing is to hit the right speed over the fence. 71 kts is about right for 2900 lbs landing weight but with higher or lower weights you need to adjust your landing speeds. I always calculate W&B on my Garmin portable with remaining fuel just before landing and then look up the right speed on the landing distance chart in the POH but Don also has a useful table on his website (second link). Most people approach too fast.

If you are bouncing your landings you must be coming in too flat. When you bounce at low speeds as you say you are its best to go around immediately as you may stall and not be able to control the aircraft. Mind that you'll be trimmed all the way back and you'll have to push hard if you add full power. I don't add full power immediately in a go-around but go to 2500-2550 RPM initially as I push down the trim switch on the yoke and clean up the aircraft and then add more power as the elevator trim gets into the take-off range.

Edited December 29, 2015 by jhbehrens

[aviatoreb]

7 hours ago, donkaye said:

I recommend my landing video:

http://www.donkaye.com/donkaye.com/Perfect_Your_Landings.html

Landings are easy when done as I demonstrate.  If your speed it correct, then your descent rate is too great if you are bouncing.  When you get good, even if you choose to come in a little faster, for example in a night landing with a longer runway, you can grease it on with some power, then at touchdown, reduce power to idle and pop the speed breaks to assist in slo down.

Thumbs up for Don's landing video.  When I first transitioned to my Mooney about 5 years ago - before I even took delivery of it - I purchased Don's video and watched it for 5 min every day just to drill into my head the intuitive look of the site picture of a Mooney landing, which was a little different from my previous airplane.  So when I took delivery, working with my CFI it really went smoothly.

[triple8s]

I won't give you any advice on landing technique, I'm not a CFI althouh I have over 500 mooney hours and over half of those in an Ovation. What I do STRONGLY suggest is to get a Mooney CFI, preferably a Mooney CFI with long body expertise, there is a difference. There have been more longbody Mooneys damaged by botched approaches than anything else. Done right and they will land on relatively short strips, mismanage energy and things go to hell in a handbasket very quickly. Going from full flaps and trimmed for landing with the power back to full power go around will get your attention if you aren't expecting it. Instantly nose pitches way up and left turn fast as a cat can lick its..... _______. Get a good Mooney CFI.

[Jeff_S]

I have heard good things about Don's video, but haven't seen it yet. And I, too, had some initial issues handling the heavier nose of the O3 compared to my J. That much engine in front is definitely a recipe for trouble if you don't learn to handle it. So while not a CFI (nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night) I will tell you what I do. Some of this has already been stated above. Also, get your training and learn what works best for you. But caveats aside:

Yes, speed control is critical. It took me awhile to learn how I could slow down the Ovation. But my numbers on final are 2300 RPM and 13" MP, or as needed to maintain correct glide angle. I'm definitely shooting for 75 KTAS or less over the threshold.

Another thing, which some people may object to, is leaving the speed brakes out all the way through landing. I've found they do help minimize the float and stabilize the landing. They are certified for take-off in the deployed condition, so don't worry about having to do a go around. Just remember that they're out there.

But it's the "feel" on flare and landing that helps me the most, and I picked this up from none other than our Richard Simile, sales guy for Premier down in these parts. He told me that on flare and touchdown, visualize your plane like an eagle or other large bird, where your main landing gear are the talons stretched out and ready to alight on the ground. Use back pressure to keep your nose up, and let those talons (gear) sink slowly into the ground. Keep back pressure up and let the nose gently touch down.  That's the feel I shoot for every time.

Good luck with it.

[aviatoreb]

Kiljit, there is no reason to ever bounce a landing even if you do not have the proper approach speed, especially if you are practicing on a long runway.  Yes, you want the correct approach speed so that when you flare you will be at the correct speed so that you will not float and then the main wheels while plant almost immediately,but....

Bouncing is a sign that you are a bit too fast.  If you are a bit too fast, then just don't land.  Flare and then let yourself float. Floating is better than bouncing (assuming you have a long runway here - if you have a short runway and you are too fast, then you need to go around - landing anyway and then bouncing won't help the situation).  So if you are too fast, even a little bit, then when you flare the Mooney won't want to land.  At that stage what you want to do is float as long as you need to until the airplane decides to land itself.  So you don't land a Mooney.  A Mooney lands itself when it is ready to land.  So your job as a pilot is to flare, at a good altitude with wheels like 1 or 2 ft of the ground, and just hold off the landing.  Here is a mantra that helped me get the hang of this - flare and then try NOT to land for as long as possible, like make a game of it.  If you are quite too fast like 5, or yikes 10, knots over speed then you will float for a long time.  That is not what you want, but floating is better than bouncing.

So of course, your job as a pilot is then to make a stabilized approach through short final at the correct speed for your airframe, for the weight you happen to be carrying at that moment. Because the goal is not just don't bounce, but also no or little float.  Mooneys can vary quite a lot from solo and light on fuel as compared to at max gross, like close to 10kts.  So your question as to what is the correct speed, is it 71kts is not quite the right question.

So you would need a table to indicate the correct speeds for various weights.  Those exist.  But that is a pain to use - I recommend an AOA (angle of attack indicator) and those that have them enjoy better landings (almost) every time.  I was landing quite well and I understood quite well all the theory and practice of proper approach speed, but with an AOA that made things much easier, my landings simply got consistently that much better even though I had already been flying my airplane for several years.  Just yesterday, I flew my Mother in law and Father in law home to CT after they had been resistant for years.  Well my mother and law seems just jolly on the concept now partly because the flight was smooth, and partly because I made a squeaker-smooth landing - better than southwest she said.  Non pilots judge pilots based on the landing.  She even sent a thank you note this morning.

[Shadrach]

I'm not an Ovation owner and have never flown one, but airplanes don't typically bounce unless they are still flying. If stall speed at the aircraft's  3368lbs MGW is 59kts then 71kts in the flare would be about right...at gross.  If you are not at gross, than that seems fast. If it's just you in the plane it is entirely possible that the total weight of man, machine and fuel is under 2900lbs. At that weight, you'd be better going off going into the flare at about 65kts.  I know that +/- 5kts seems trivial, and it is if you hold the airplane off until it's ready to touch down. However, you will eat up ~500ft of runway at a minimum waiting for the thing to bleed off speed. Mooneys more than most any other mainstream aircraft demand precision in landing.

If I am wrong here and it is SOP for those of you flying long bodies to go into the flare at more than 1.2 Vso, can one of you explain why? Does the aircraft lose pitch authority at slower speeds with a forward CG?

Edited December 29, 2015 by Shadrach

[PMcClure]

I don't think the Ovation is that hard to land and certainly more tolerance allowed than +2 knots!  The angle of the Ovation is a few degrees (like 5?) higher than a J and even more than other singles. So you may think you are in a flare when you really aren't. That may lead to a nose gear bounce.The nose is also heavier and longer. It takes all trim and some back pressure to get smooth landings. I also like to use hand trim instead of the electric trim because I can move it faster. Best suggestion here is to get some practical help. I have bounced on the nose gear once and that was once too much. If you have a good length runway, you should be able to hold off until she settles, even if you have a little extra speed. Certainly 70 over the numbers can result in a good landing. 

Get some help and you will do fine after a few landings!

Take note - a go around/abort  in an Ovation is more interesting than any other plane I have flown. You'll need to get some practice with this as well. 

[rbridges]

If you're landing on the mains and it's still bouncing, I would guess too much energy.  You may be "forcing" it on the runway before it's ready.  I tend to pull the power and try to "fly" it down the runway.  It eventually runs out of steam and touches down.  Same principle should apply with your bigger plane.  Also, make sure your yoke is all the way back when your mains touch.  

[carqwik]

I'd suggest you reach out to Don Kaye...if you want to optimize your flight training specifically to the long body.  As someone else said, you really don't want to mess around bouncing your new-to-you O3 on landings.

[kj2016]

thank you! I appreciate all of feed back! I will contact Don as well!

[mike_elliott]

Hi Kuljit, I just sent you a PM, If you are on the west coast, Give Don a call. He can get you up to (the correct) speed on landings.

[M20F]

11 hours ago, donkaye said:

If your speed it correct, then your descent rate is too great if you are bouncing.  

This I notice is an issue common with many pilots who have bad landings.  They have the speed correct but are sinking like a ton of bricks.  Most airplanes this results in just a hard hit, in a Mooney it results in a nice bounce.  The real danger is if you are at the right speed or below and bounce like this you may not have enough speed to go around from the bounce and that is where the bent metal comes.

When in doubt carry more speed in a Mooney (keeping in mind runway length) and let it float on.  As you become more and more comfortable you can slowly start taking that speed away to where you start coming in with the right pitch and speed.  The absolute worse thing is bouncing a slow Mooney as the options are very limited when you do.

My two cents!

[Marauder]

11 hours ago, donkaye said: If your speed it correct, then your descent rate is too great if you are bouncing.  

This I notice is an issue common with many pilots who have bad landings.  They have the speed correct but are sinking like a ton of bricks.  Most airplanes this results in just a hard hit, in a Mooney it results in a nice bounce.  The real danger is if you are at the right speed or below and bounce like this you may not have enough speed to go around from the bounce and that is where the bent metal comes.

When in doubt carry more speed in a Mooney (keeping in mind runway length) and let it float on.  As you become more and more comfortable you can slowly start taking that speed away to where you start coming in with the right pitch and speed.  The absolute worse thing is bouncing a slow Mooney as the options are very limited when you do.

My two cents!

I've noticed the high sink rate despite the correct airspeed a few times in my years of ownership. I often wondered if it was a CG issue or a dynamic associated with the angle of attack on the laminar wing.

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[GeorgePerry]

12 hours ago, Kuljit hundal said:

thanks! I am planning to have a instructor! I found landing bit challenging to learn on my own.

Kuljit,

Great that you asked for help and advice...Mooneyspace is full of some really experienced mooniacs.  I concur with much of what's been said.  Don's video's are really good, and reading as much as you can will only help, but nothing replaces practice with a type familiar instructor.  I'm not sure where you're based but I'd recommend checking out the Mooney Safety Foundation and find an instructor that can help give you the training you need.

http://www.mapasafety.com/instructors

 

[MooneyMitch]

http://www.donkaye.com/donkaye.com/Perfect_Your_Landings.html

As previously posted................highly recommended! 

[M20F]

7 minutes ago, Marauder said:

I've noticed the high sink rate despite the correct airspeed a few times in my years of ownership. I often wondered if it was a CG issue or a dynamic associated with the angle of attack on the laminar wing.

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Generally it comes from insufficient power and it isn't special to Mooney's or the laminar wing it just makes it a lot more noticeable.  The general scenario is coming in high, chop the power because you are high, and then focus on maintaining X knots.  You get the airspeed you want but it comes at the expense of hurtling like a brick towards the ground.  This is why Don's comment is very relevant that it is not only speed it is also descent rate that matters when trying to land.  Mooney pilots tend to be very speed focused (too focused at times imho).