Airframe Damage after a gear up landing

[Shadrach]

I have been asked for advice regarding the purchase of a 78 J model that had a gear up 11 yrs ago. I've not completely reviewed the logs, but the repair to the non moving parts of the airframe reads like the only thing replaced were 2 belly skins and some screws. The panel supports were "straightened". The repair was completed 10 years ago. While the plane has been flying ever since, it still seemed odd.  I'd appreciate input from hose of you who've been down this road both as mechanic and owner or both!

Edited September 14, 2015 by Shadrach

[rob47v]

As long as the repairs where made correctly, it should not impair with its ability to fly straight and safely. The price should be adjusted for the fact of the gear up incident tho. But the repair is a bit more extensive than just 2 belly panels. usually but not always the lower bulkheads need replacing, or if they can be repaired by riviting on doublers to give them back there strength, then that can be followed . On my F model I replaced 2 bulkheads, 3 belly skins, and had to repair the tails aft lower V haul skin section, and last but not least replace the nose gear doors. So be careful, have the aircraft inspected correctly.      

[Tony Armour]

Many have had gear up landings including mine early in its life. If repaired properly it shouldn't be an issue, it wasn't for me.

[Shadrach]

Thanks gents! Just to clarify, I understannd that a gear up in an aircraft's history is no big deal. My concern is in what I am seeing (or rather not seeing) in the logs for this particular aircraft. It reads like there was no damage beyond cosmetic. The purpose of the question is to determine if that's unlikely. Sure it would all come out during prebuy, but I want to prescient before it gets that far.

Thanks again!

[capthaak]

The more interesting sign off in the logs would be in the engine log. What was done?

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[Shadrach]

The more interesting sign off in the logs would be in the engine log. What was done?

 

 

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It's not interesting at all. It was overhauled by Triad in Erwin, NC. All core engine parts were refurbished by R Roman. Case went to Divco. Fuel system was ovehauled from servo to flow divider.  Mags and fuel pump exchanged.

This is a relatively low time bird. What is interesting is that the cam has survived 37 years with <3000hrs.

Maybe it was flown weekly for at least an hour. Maybe he ran cam guard in it before camguard was invented. Maybe he had an engine dryer and silica spark plug inserts...but my bet is that in the 70s, Lycoming had their production lines cranking and their QC in order.  In the following decades, I think they made several batches of $hit cams.

Edited September 14, 2015 by Shadrach

[Andy95W]

It's not interesting at all. It was overhauled by Triad in Erwin, NC. All core engine parts were refurbished by R Roman. Case went to Divco. Fuel system was ovehauled from servo to flow divider.  Mags and fuel pump exchanged.

 

This is a relatively low time bird. What is interesting is that the cam has survived 37 years with <3000hrs.

Maybe it was flown weekly for at least an hour. Maybe he ran cam guard in it before camguard was invented. Maybe he had an engine dryer and silica spark plug inserts...but my bet is that in the 70s, Lycoming had their production lines cranking and their QC in order.  In the following decades, I think they made several batches of $hit cams.

He probably always used flaps on takeoff.  

[Andy95W]

I have been asked for advice regarding the purchase of a 78 J model that had a gear up 11 yrs ago. I've not completely reviewed the logs, but the repair to the non moving parts of the airframe reads like the only thing replaced were 2 belly skins and some screws. The panel supports were "straightened". The repair was completed 10 years ago. While the plane has been flying ever since, it still seemed odd.  I'd appreciate input from hose of you who've been down this road both as mechanic and owner or both!

Yes, this is very typical.  Our Mooneys are probably the best and most easily repaired aircraft to have a gear up with.

[Jeff_S]

I bought my Ovation after a gear-up. They did replace the affected parts with all new from Mooney, but it was just skins and belly panels, transponder antenna, etc.  Nothing structural with the plane at all.

[Shadrach]

Jeff, doesn't the Ovation have a one piece fiberglass belly with strakes? I would imagine that would protect most of the supports in the belly. The older birds have a single layer of 2024 screwed to a number of crossmembers and or bulkheads starting at the firewall back.

[MyNameIsNobody]

I would be surprised if there wasn't a flap hinge or two as well as a stringer for belly skins that needed repair.  Springs in the bungee can also be impacted.  The belly strobe can be your friend in a GU taking one for the team (lens) as are the nose gear doors and relatively inexpensive flap hinges.  Three blade prop also helps keep cowl flaps/lower cowl off of runway.

[KSMooniac]

The "panel supports" make me very curious.  Are these the bulkheads/formers in the belly to support the sheet metal panels, or something with the instrument panel?  Probably the belly, but you can't just straighten those... I would want to put eyes on it myself.  They're easy enough to replace IMO.  If the steel tubes supporting the instrument panel were straightened, then we're talking major damage!  

[rob47v]

The "panel supports" make me very curious.  Are these the bulkheads/formers in the belly to support the sheet metal panels, or something with the instrument panel?  Probably the belly, but you can't just straighten those... I would want to put eyes on it myself.  They're easy enough to replace IMO.  If the steel tubes supporting the instrument panel were straightened, then we're talking major damage!  

They are the formers were the belly skins attach to! I've never seen any not bent or destroyed!! 

[Shadrach]

The "panel supports" make me very curious.  Are these the bulkheads/formers in the belly to support the sheet metal panels, or something with the instrument panel?  Probably the belly, but you can't just straighten those... I would want to put eyes on it myself.  They're easy enough to replace IMO.  If the steel tubes supporting the instrument panel were straightened, then we're talking major damage!  

yes, we're talking supports for the belly panels.  I believe they would be a relatively easy repair, so why "straighten" them? There's no way they would ever be the same unless replaced.

[PTK]

It's not interesting at all. It was overhauled by Triad in Erwin, NC. All core engine parts were refurbished by R Roman. Case went to Divco. Fuel system was ovehauled from servo to flow divider.  Mags and fuel pump exchanged.

This is a relatively low time bird. What is interesting is that the cam has survived 37 years with <3000hrs.

Maybe it was flown weekly for at least an hour. Maybe he ran cam guard in it before camguard was invented. Maybe he had an engine dryer and silica spark plug inserts...but my bet is that in the 70s, Lycoming had their production lines cranking and their QC in order.  In the following decades, I think they made several batches of $hit cams.

Maybe he watched his TAS and stayed well below Vne IAS.

Edited September 14, 2015 by PTK

[Jeff_S]

Jeff, doesn't the Ovation have a one piece fiberglass belly with strakes? I would imagine that would protect most of the supports in the belly. The older birds have a single layer of 2024 screwed to a number of crossmembers and or bulkheads starting at the firewall back.

It is true that the belly is mostly one piece, although not entirely (and I can't think of any strakes down there). There are a couple of other panels closer up toward the firewall that provide access to things. But you're right that it doesn't have multiple skins all screwed into the supporting structure.  

[MyNameIsNobody]

Maybe he watched his TAS and stayed well below Vne IAS.

You are such a little _ _ _ _ _.  Let it go already.

[Shadrach]

It is true that the belly is mostly one piece, although not entirely (and I can't think of any strakes down there). There are a couple of other panels closer up toward the firewall that provide access to things. But you're right that it doesn't have multiple skins all screwed into the supporting structure.  

Perhaps it's the SWTA one piece belly mod that has the strakes.

[DS1980]

You are such a little _ _ _ _ _.  Let it go already.

5 characters? All the ones I can think of have 4. Give us a hint!!!

Shad-Nothing comparable to someone that knows what they are looking at take a look. If that's not you, tell the potential buyer. I know I wouldn't know what exactly to look at. It would be tough to say it was good and then have them find something expensive or for somebody to get hurt in an airplane that was repaired improperly and finally gave up the ghost 11 years later.

Edited September 14, 2015 by DS1980

[N601RX]

It's the Aero Mods inc 1 piece belly that has the stakes down each side.  I put one of these on a few years ago and the instructions said to remove some of the original panel support crosspieces as well as the riveted on section of skin under the seat area.  In talking to the owner of Aero Mods he told me that he ran a flight school out in Co and got tired of repairing the belly skins, so he developed the one piece and put the stakes on it.  He said they would just slide to a stop and the stake would be about 1/4" shorter than before and it usually saved the flap hinges.

I also have a complete set of undamaged belly skins if any should have a need for them.

[Shadrach]

5 characters? All the ones I can think of have 4. Give us a hint!!!

Shad-Nothing comparable to someone that knows what they are looking at take a look. If that's not you, tell the potential buyer. I know I wouldn't know what exactly to look at. It would be tough to say it was good and then have them find something expensive or for somebody to get hurt in an airplane that was repaired improperly and finally gave up the ghost 11 years later.

The plane is a solid 3hr round trip for me in my bird. While I am more acquainted with the structure underneith the belly skins then I'd like to be, this is a colleague of a friend asking and it would be a long day.  I doubt it's dangerous given the nature of the area + it has about 500hrs and 10yrs since the repair. I am concerned about diminished value if it's been repaired to "just good enough". Trying to decern if it's worth a prebuy inspection...

Edited September 14, 2015 by Shadrach

[Andy95W]

I really wouldn't let that deter me at all, regardless of how it was signed off. 

To save the time, trouble and avgas, you could have the seller remove the belly panels and take pictures to e-mail, and to give you the name and phone # of the last shop to do an annual on the airplane.  They could at least give an opinion of the quality of the repair.

 I'll bet it looks like a solid, professional repair.  I bet it isn't even recognizable as damage.