Buyer Beware - 231 in Fullerton N4097H

[jrwilson]

Buyer beware on this Dan Howard plane advertised on Controller; a 231 in Fullerton:  http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20K-231/1980-MOONEY-M20K-231/1370093.htm

 

I was in contact with the broker and repeatedly asked for logs,etc and was given logs prior to 2012, the broker claimed the owner had the rest of the logs.  Based on the ad, plane looked great, so I drove 8 hours to Southern California.

 

Plane was not as represented.  Paint, which claimed to be new in 2012 and was rated as a "9" in the ad, was pretty rough, though it does sit outside.  I'd give it a "7" at best.  Nice scheme but aging poorly. The interior was also represented as a "9" was pretty poor as well. The headliner was cracked, with duct tape in a portion, and several cracks throughout.  They did have a new headliner in the aircraft backseat, uninstalled.  There was duct tape residue on several plastic parts on the interior, which probably could be cleaned, but was nasty.  Seats were sort of scuffed and dirty.  Again, interior, maybe a "7".

 

No mention in the ad of the recent (2012) spar cap splice, where they found corrosion in the spar cap and replaced 20" of the cap.  From the log, it actually looked like it was repaired well, but still, good info to know...  No mention of the "hard landing inspection" in 2013, where the main lower gear doors and nose gear had to be sent to LASAR for repair, the prop cable had to be replaced, etc. Again, appeared to be repaired well from the log entry but we have a pattern of recent issues, buyers like to know about. 

 

The ad says the plane is in annual until May, 2016, but according to the logs, the last annual was in January, 2014, so it is out of annual.  No log entries since January, 2014...

 

So 30 minutes later, packed up my stuff and left.  Very dissapointed in how the plane was represented.  I would expect a broker to do a better job.  I hope they just hadn't done their homework on it.  They claim they are coming to pick it up soon and fly it to their office in Oklahoma.  Will they be able to get a ferry permit from Fullerton to Oklahoma, since from the logs it appeares out of annual?

[firefly201]

Yes, it should be able to be ferried with a "Special Flight Permit" issued by a FSDO

[fantom]

Dan Howard should know better.....for shame! 

[StinkBug]

Aside from the cosmetics it sounds like all of this could/should have been covered by simply providing current logs. Cosmetics are always subjective, and often people grade based on clapped out rentals being average, which makes their average plane a 9. Sucks that you came that far for that experience when they could have sent you the important stuff. Definitely a failure on the part of the broker.

 

One suggestion for the next one, post up on here before making the trip and see if someone local can put eyes on the plane for you in person. A member here was kind enough to do that for me when I was looking at a plane 1000mi away from home, and it made it much easier for me to justify making the trip myself. I know I'd be happy to do it for anyone looking at a plane near me.

[jrwilson]

Aside from the cosmetics it sounds like all of this could/should have been covered by simply providing current logs. Cosmetics are always subjective, and often people grade based on clapped out rentals being average, which makes their average plane a 9. Sucks that you came that far for that experience when they could have sent you the important stuff. Definitely a failure on the part of the broker.

 

One suggestion for the next one, post up on here before making the trip and see if someone local can put eyes on the plane for you in person. A member here was kind enough to do that for me when I was looking at a plane 1000mi away from home, and it made it much easier for me to justify making the trip myself. I know I'd be happy to do it for anyone looking at a plane near me.

 

Awesome idea and I certainly will do that in the future!

[StinkBug]

That tactic worked out well for me, though it didn't save me any money. I ended up buying the plane!

[stevesm20b]

I bought my plane from them in 2011. I had a positive experience with dealing with them. Since the plane is not in Oklahoma they probably didn't see the airplane before posting the add. Anyway, might be able to get the plane for less than the asking price.

[jrwilson]

Probably could, but still wouldn't want it...too many problems right up front. A little more digging would likely find more...

[DHowardAir]

Hello. This is Dan Howard,

First of all, "fantom", I do know better. However, I wish you would have obtained the facts about what happened here in an unbiased fashion prior to making such a derogatory statement about me, because you've done so in error.

I have been out of town the past week, picking up two aircraft, and I just returned yesterday. Today, yes, today, was the very first day I have heard anything about this situation. Mr. Wilson never tried to contact me, never left a message for me to contact him, to attempted to resolve the situation. I can understand him being upset about his perception of the condition of the aircraft, if it did not meet his expectations, but, his statements about the annual inspection due dates are incorrect, and his insinuation that we misled him intentionally are absolutely false. We very recently listed this aircraft, the more recent set of logbooks are still with the airplane in California, and the owner is currently in Washington state and has been unable to coordinate getting log copies of the current logs to us. We are scheduled to go pick up the aircraft sometime in the next two weeks. Matter of fact, we were supposed to go get the aircraft a couple weeks ago but the owner decided to have the annual inspection and some needed repairs prior to us picking it up so we would not need to make a 1,300 mile trip on a ferry permit. Thus, this has delayed us getting the records. When we get those logs here we plan to thoroughly review them, make adjustments were necessary in the ad, and be able to provide scanned copies of the entire logs to anyone interested. Mr. Wilson was advised that we have not seen this aircraft yet, that we have just listed it, yet he chose to go ahead and go see the aircraft right away. Our specifications always state that verification of all the times and equipment are the responsibility of the buyer upon inspection. That is the industry standard in this business because there are so many variables that come into play. Some of them are subjective, some of them are objective. We always list damage history, any damage history that we are aware of. We listed all damage history that the owner told us about. Many many times we run across owners that have an aircraft that has damage history that they are unaware of, or the owner has been dishonest with us, or failed to disclose that information to us. But, we normally find it ourselves once we get our hands on the logs and the aircraft and can do our in-depth research.

I have been doing this for 18 years and we are 10 planes away from reaching our 1,000th aircraft sold.

We routinely have very good working relationships and rapports with our customers. However, there are times when customers have misttreated my employees. When that occurs, it is hard for me to find much sympathy with that customer. My employees have been with me for many years, they are very valuable assets to my company, and I've come to rely on them and I have a lot of confidence in them. So, I'm going to defend them when I feel they're being mistreated.

Also, when an employee tells me that a customer states that he/she is a police officer and then demands to be wife reimbursed for his travel expenses, and that customer has never reached out to me, I tend to not have a very good taste in my mouth.

I also am a retired state police officer, a former state police pilot ias well, and I run my business with good ethics and I try my best to see that my customers are treated well and satisfied. But, that is very difficult to do when someone does not afford me the courtesy of requesting that I contact them and subsequently give me an opportunity of knowing that they have a problem. It is very hard to handle situations when they arise if one isn't made aware of the fact. I am an old-school kind of man, if I have a problem I go directly to that person and I try to resolve said situation with them one-on-one. I have good people skills and strive to excel in conflict resolution if given the chance. That did not happen here, and I'm really disappointed in that. If any of you gentlemen are seekers of the full facts, and would like to discuss this with me and get more details, you're welcome to give me a call during the week at my office and I will gladly discuss this with you. And I will be glad to relay to you gentlemen what I actually do discover once I get to go pick up this aircraft and get to physically inspect it and the entire logbooks.

Thank you for taking the time to hear me out.

Respectfully,

Dan W. Howard (President)

Dan Howard Aircraft Sales, LLC

Tulsa, OK

[Alan Fox]

Amazing that some duct tape and "residue" on a 35 year old airplane , The nerve of some people........ It always amazes me how some people expect a new airplane from 40 year old stock.......It also amazes me that people will trash someone's business and livelihood at the drop of a coin.....

[fantom]

Thanks for the extensive explanation and 'other side of story', Dan.

[Jimhamilton]

Looks like a nice plane to me. I think maybe you had a bad day. Let's forget about it and move on. Blessings to both of you.

[cliffy]

We've got a 231 here on our field that has been sitting for a year. Seems it left the taxiway line at night and drove into a  cement drainage ditch. Nothing but the radios is salvageable. Not a straight piece of metal on it and both prop blades are loose in the hub. Nose gear is collapsed also.

 

I know I hijacked the thread Just wanted to let things cool down a little and change the subject for a few minutes. 

[DHowardAir]

Gentlemen,

A few weeks ago I said I would take a one look at the bird in question here and report back. In an effort to keep my word, I thought I would post a few photos as photos can speak 10,000 words. Also, the annual inspection was indeed completed prior to the erroneous suggestion of the original poster of this thread. The logbook entries were in an envelope in the logbooks and were inserted in the logs afterwards.

I flew this bird from California to Tulsa, OK about a week ago. We opened it up somewhat today to track down a loose wire and were successful in such. While it was open I wanted to take some photos as I am very very pleased with what I have seen of this airplane this far. She flies very well, and the cosmetics were MUCH nicer and cleaner than I originally had expected it would be.

Hope this clears up any ambiguity caused by the 'buyer beware' statement in the title of this thread.

Many thanks for all the kind words.

[KSMooniac]

Looks very nice except for the VG's spoiling the wing!    Good luck with the sale.

[Cruiser]

In regards to this plane and the comments above, I have no interest or "side" to take. I do have one question.

 

How can a rating be given to cosmetic conditions if the plane has not been seen by the person making the rating?

[DHowardAir]

Cruiser, from my experience, it is all subjective, but fairly uniform to those who have engaged in discussions about the rating system. The Aircraft Bluebook Price Digest had (or it at least had had in the past of not now) a rating scale definition table of sorts near the front of the book. It pretty well labeled each rating of 1 thru 10.

I never give anything a 10 unless it just rolled off the assembly line. So, new paint and or new interior (if done professionally) would start at a 9+.

Most told rare and airplane with serviceable but old, oxidized, or dated paint with little or no gloss, but intact and not peeling off as a 5 to 6.

[DHowardAir]

Cruiser, from my experience, it is all subjective, but fairly uniform to those who have engaged in discussions about the rating system. The Aircraft Bluebook Price Digest had (or it at least had had in the past of not now) a rating scale definition table of sorts near the front of the book. It pretty well labeled each rating of 1 thru 10.

I never give anything a 10 unless it just rolled off the assembly line. So, new paint and or new interior (if done professionally) would start at a 9+.

Most folks would rate an airplane with serviceable but old, oxidized, or dated paint with little or no gloss, but intact and not peeling off as a 5 to 6.

I recall the Bluebook as labeling peeking paint as a 4, paint nearly gone as s 3, exterior corrosion a 2, and flat out unairworthy as s 1.

[N9201A]

Looks like a clean 231.  How did you find the VGs?  I have never flown a Mooney with one, although I am always reluctant to fly a twin without them!  

[frcabot]

Looks like a nice plane to me.

[Mike A]

We've got a 231 here on our field that has been sitting for a year. Seems it left the taxiway line at night and drove into a  cement drainage ditch. Nothing but the radios is salvageable. Not a straight piece of metal on it and both prop blades are loose in the hub. Nose gear is collapsed also.

 

I know I hijacked the thread Just wanted to let things cool down a little and change the subject for a few minutes. 

 

Do you know the owner?  I am looking for a couple interior plastic pieces if they are in one piece....

[Zwaustin]

I offered $105k contingent upon a Don Maxwell pre buy. I offered to pay for the ferry costs as well. Needless to say seller refused the offer and would not let me do a prebuy at a shop off airport. I ended up buying a 79 m20k n231dh instead and got more for less $ with a Don Maxwell pre buy. Spoke to Dan Howard and his sales mgr a few time on this plane and he was fine to deal with we just could not come to a reasonable agreement.

Ran damage history and it did have some major spar corrosion history.

If anyone is interested in the title search, 337's, or damage history I have paid for it and can email it to you to save you time and 75 bucks.

[1mParker]

I offered $105k contingent upon a Don Maxwell pre buy. I offered to pay for the ferry costs as well. Needless to say seller refused the offer and would not let me do a prebuy at a shop off airport. I ended up buying a 79 m20k n231dh instead and got more for less $ with a Don Maxwell pre buy. Spoke to Dan Howard and his sales mgr a few time on this plane and he was fine to deal with we just could not come to a reasonable agreement.

Ran damage history and it did have some major spar corrosion history.

If anyone is interested in the title search, 337's, or damage history I have paid for it and can email it to you to save you time and 75 bucks.

I'm interested in the damage history, title search and 337's you have found.

Thanks,

Matthew

[Tony Armour]

From all that, it sounds to me like it would be better to WAIT until you get the logs and WAIT until you actually see the airplane before you stake your reputation on it and make a listing. But hey, from what I'm hearing it's no skin off your back that the poster spent a lot of time and probably a good bit of money based on YOUR ad. I fully understand his frustration. A bunch of excuses doesn't cut it. A blanket disclaimer DOESN'T make it OK. And no I don't know him.

Tony Armour

Hello. This is Dan Howard,

First of all, "fantom", I do know better. However, I wish you would have obtained the facts about what happened here in an unbiased fashion prior to making such a derogatory statement about me, because you've done so in error.

I have been out of town the past week, picking up two aircraft, and I just returned yesterday. Today, yes, today, was the very first day I have heard anything about this situation. Mr. Wilson never tried to contact me, never left a message for me to contact him, to attempted to resolve the situation. I can understand him being upset about his perception of the condition of the aircraft, if it did not meet his expectations, but, his statements about the annual inspection due dates are incorrect, and his insinuation that we misled him intentionally are absolutely false. We very recently listed this aircraft, the more recent set of logbooks are still with the airplane in California, and the owner is currently in Washington state and has been unable to coordinate getting log copies of the current logs to us. We are scheduled to go pick up the aircraft sometime in the next two weeks. Matter of fact, we were supposed to go get the aircraft a couple weeks ago but the owner decided to have the annual inspection and some needed repairs prior to us picking it up so we would not need to make a 1,300 mile trip on a ferry permit. Thus, this has delayed us getting the records. When we get those logs here we plan to thoroughly review them, make adjustments were necessary in the ad, and be able to provide scanned copies of the entire logs to anyone interested. Mr. Wilson was advised that we have not seen this aircraft yet, that we have just listed it, yet he chose to go ahead and go see the aircraft right away. Our specifications always state that verification of all the times and equipment are the responsibility of the buyer upon inspection. That is the industry standard in this business because there are so many variables that come into play. Some of them are subjective, some of them are objective. We always list damage history, any damage history that we are aware of. We listed all damage history that the owner told us about. Many many times we run across owners that have an aircraft that has damage history that they are unaware of, or the owner has been dishonest with us, or failed to disclose that information to us. But, we normally find it ourselves once we get our hands on the logs and the aircraft and can do our in-depth research.

I have been doing this for 18 years and we are 10 planes away from reaching our 1,000th aircraft sold.

We routinely have very good working relationships and rapports with our customers. However, there are times when customers have misttreated my employees. When that occurs, it is hard for me to find much sympathy with that customer. My employees have been with me for many years, they are very valuable assets to my company, and I've come to rely on them and I have a lot of confidence in them. So, I'm going to defend them when I feel they're being mistreated.

Also, when an employee tells me that a customer states that he/she is a police officer and then demands to be wife reimbursed for his travel expenses, and that customer has never reached out to me, I tend to not have a very good taste in my mouth.

I also am a retired state police officer, a former state police pilot ias well, and I run my business with good ethics and I try my best to see that my customers are treated well and satisfied. But, that is very difficult to do when someone does not afford me the courtesy of requesting that I contact them and subsequently give me an opportunity of knowing that they have a problem. It is very hard to handle situations when they arise if one isn't made aware of the fact. I am an old-school kind of man, if I have a problem I go directly to that person and I try to resolve said situation with them one-on-one. I have good people skills and strive to excel in conflict resolution if given the chance. That did not happen here, and I'm really disappointed in that. If any of you gentlemen are seekers of the full facts, and would like to discuss this with me and get more details, you're welcome to give me a call during the week at my office and I will gladly discuss this with you. And I will be glad to relay to you gentlemen what I actually do discover once I get to go pick up this aircraft and get to physically inspect it and the entire logbooks.

Thank you for taking the time to hear me out.

Respectfully,

Dan W. Howard (President)

Dan Howard Aircraft Sales, LLC

Tulsa, OK

[Zwaustin]

Looks like it finally sold 10/8/15

 

Hope the buyer got a good deal. 

Price was dropped a number of times.