Scary Moment this morning

[Oscar Avalle]

Well after some back and forth I decided to swap my LASAR ignition for a newer electroair system. Why did I do it? Well LASAR is no longer being supported by anybody and I had heard many good things about electroair. BIG MISTAKE, don't mess with things that are working....

 

After an installation that took a little bit longer than expected, the bird was ready and I went flying this morning. 

 

The plane started well (two blades) and it was running like a kitten... wonderful. I just noticed that all CHT were raising, but well, it may change was my thought. On take off I noticed that I was not getting the RPM I was expecting (2600 instead of 2700) and power did not seem as it was with the LASAR, the plane felt sluggish, but I was committed and took off (mistake). After take off I noticed that CHT on cyl 1 and 3 were reaching 480 degrees and the plane was not climbing! At that point I requested to return to the field and landed safely. 

 

I turned off the plane and tried to start the engine, and it took several turns and before it started it backfired! Then it ran again well, but it did not produce the expected RPM (static full power 2500) and CHT raised to the sky! 

 

We checked compression and everything above 70! No leaks... so it is a real mystery... any suggestions.

 

I asked my AP to adjust the timing to 20 instead of 25... if it does not work I am going back to my magnetos...

 

 Any suggestions, ideas.... 

[bonal]

No suggestions on the problem but just a note to say good job on your safe return.

[ArtVandelay]

Were EGTs lower than normal? If yes then advancing timing could be the fix, what about 2&4 cylinders? If not consistent across cylinders, I would double check you are wired up correctly.

[Marauder]

Scary stuff Oscar. I think you have an engine analyzer. Download that data and send it over to Savvy to have them look at it. I found they can fill in the gaps of my knowledge.

[kevinw]

I installed the electroair EIS in my J last year and haven't had any problems. I remember the installer having to send the control box back to electroair to have the base timing changed because the timing in my IO-360-A3B6 is set at 20 degrees and the control box comes out of the factory at 25 degrees BTDC. You might want to look into this. I copied this from the electroair install manual:

 

a Calibration and Timing settings: Your unit has been pre-set at the factory for a base timing of 25 deg BTDC (base timing is always placarded timing for the engine). Please contact us if you feel that your unit is not performing optimally, or if that base timing needs to be adjusted.

 

I researched this unit extensively before installing it. The Aviation Consumer had a story on it in October 2014 and gave it very good reviews. My installer said the customer service there is excellent so definitely give them a call. Glad you made is back to the airport safely!

[N201MKTurbo]

I bet the installer set the base timing to 25 deg instead of TDC. That would make the timing 50 deg BTDC. It is a wonder you didn't blow the cylinders off.

Or I could be full of it, because I've never worked on one of these systems.

[takair]

Sounds like the basic timing is off. I Would have your mechanic go over that again.

[Oscar Avalle]

I bet the installer set the base timing to 25 deg instead of TDC. That would make the timing 50 deg BTDC. It is a wonder you didn't blow the cylinders off.

Or I could be full of it, because I've never worked on one of these systems.

Yes he did set it 25 degrees...but I don't know if BTDC or TDC... We had a discussion this morning basically about setting it to 20... I suggested he should call electroair Mike on Monday.  

 

I just talked to my mechanic and they are going to look into this on Monday. I will report back... Needless to say I am rather disappointed...

 

Sorry my silly questions but here in Guatemala they have never seen one of these systems and I am basically the troubleshooter. 

[Hank]

TDC is Top Dead Center, the point In crankshaft rotation where the piston stops going up and starts going down.

Good luck getting things running right again.

[N201MKTurbo]

Most automotive electronic ignitions have the timing sensor set to TDC. They usually have a jumper to fire at the base timing so you can set the base timing with a timing light. In airplanes we don't use a timing light, we use a box that can sense when the points open by a change in inductance of the p lead. I don't know how to time the electronair system, but I think it would be to TDC.

READ THE MANUAL!

[Mr Bill]

N201MKTurbo,

I just scanned the manual on the Electroair website. Page 1.1 and installation pages state to set crankashaft at TDC before installing the Electroair system. You are probobly correct that the timing was at 50degrees BTC during the flight. I am not an engine expert, but I would sure consult one before flying this engine. Again, not an expert, but I would be reluctant to just set the timing and go.

Bill

[N201MKTurbo]

At the very least, I would pull all the spark plugs and see if any of the insulators are broken. The engine had to be detonating badly. Beyond that I would be concerned with head barrel separation. look in the spark plug holes and make sure the pistons are not broken or melted.

These engines are very tough it is probably OK.

[cujet]

As pilots, we are required to know the systems on the aircraft we fly. Prior to departure after ignition modification, one should "brief" or "consider" what to do in case of problem. Including the possibility of switching to the known good magneto if something happens. 

 

I can only guess at what actually happened, and what your setup was, and what is actually wrong. However, it might have been a good idea to switch to to the remaining magneto, which was known to be good. 

 

We train for failed ignition with some regularity. But, as a reminder to us all, the switch is there so we can shut one off if necessary, for any number of reasons. 

 

Edit: Even a conventional magneto with failed internals, such as a broken rotor, can cause some really weird problems, and can even cause a perfectly good engine to stop running (one good mag, one bad) ! Yet, when the bad one is switched off, all is well. 

[kevinw]

As pilots, we are required to know the systems on the aircraft we fly. Prior to departure after ignition modification, one should "brief" or "consider" what to do in case of problem. Including the possibility of switching to the known good magneto if something happens. 

 

I can only guess at what actually happened, and what your setup was, and what is actually wrong. However, it might have been a good idea to switch to to the remaining magneto, which was known to be good. 

 

We train for failed ignition with some regularity. But, as a reminder to us all, the switch is there so we can shut one off if necessary, for any number of reasons. 

 

Edit: Even a conventional magneto with failed internals, such as a broken rotor, can cause some really weird problems, and can even cause a perfectly good engine to stop running (one good mag, one bad) ! Yet, when the bad one is switched off, all is well. 

With this type of install the right mag is replaced with the EIS leaving the left intact and firing. So in the event the EIS fails or malfunctions, the left mag is still always firing keeping the engine running. In this case, he probably could have shut the EIS off and returned to the airport with the one mag firing. That's what I was told to do after mine was installed but easier said than done!

[Oscar Avalle]

Well, just to provide you with an update. It seems that the problem are the CHT probes! I used my old GEM probes and I did not reprogram de unit! Thus they were showing much higher than the should do. With the new ignition the cylinders were working hotter, thus the high CHT.

[takair]

Oscar

480 degrees does not sound right for any ignition system. You also mentioned sluggish power. I would be hesitant to operate above 400 on a regular basis. Are you certain that is all there is to this issue?

[cnoe]

Well, just to provide you with an update. It seems that the problem are the CHT probes! I used my old GEM probes and I did not reprogram de unit! Thus they were showing much higher than the should do. With the new ignition the cylinders were working hotter, thus the high CHT.

Nothing about this sounds right. Did you install a new engine monitor at the same time as the new ignition system? Does the ignition system display CHTs? Program the unit? What unit; new engine monitor? I don't think the temps are a programmable setting.

I’m no expert but if you have CHTs above 400 you've got issues. Seek professional help.

Cnoe

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[Andy95W]

I bet the installer set the base timing to 25 deg instead of TDC. That would make the timing 50 deg BTDC. It is a wonder you didn't blow the cylinders off.

Or I could be full of it, because I've never worked on one of these systems.

Nothing about this sounds right. Did you install a new engine monitor at the same time as the new ignition system? Does the ignition system display CHTs? Program the unit? What unit; new engine monitor? I don't think the temps are a programmable setting.

I’m no expert but if you have CHTs above 400 you've got issues. Seek professional help.

Cnoe

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You probably need to seek DIFFERENT professional help. Your current professional help may have damaged your engine, and may be trying to feed you BS to convince you he didn't.

[Oscar Avalle]

Indeed, I changed my AP and I grounded my plane until everything has been worked out. The engine is in good shape (145 hrs since overhaul). I had it borescoped, compression checked, etc. and everything came out ok. 

 

On the JPI 830.  I reused my old probes, they are GEM and not JPI. According to JPI's tech support these may read significantly above of what they should. So we replaced one CHT probe with an analog probe to see what was going on. While the analog probe read 330 the JPI (GEM) probe read 420....  So we went to each cylinder and did the same with the same result. 

 

Thank you for all your help and suggestions!!!