GeorgePerry Posted January 9, 2015 Report Posted January 9, 2015 Well it has begun. I've got my Eagle in the shop for some much needed upgrades. The deconstruction is nearly complete and the goodies will be going in. It's kind of scary seeing the panel in such a mess. The avionics shop assures me that it'll be perfect when they're done. I've seen them do many other upgrades so I'm sure this is the case. Soon the plane will be fully ADS-B compliant, have Bluetooth compatibility with my iPad and have a modern engine monitor. Parts that are being installed are Garmin GDL-88, Garmin Flight Stream 210 and Electronics International CGR-30P to replace a very old and not very useful UGB-16. The thought process around these components and timing was first, to get ahead of the 2020 mandate, get the benefits from ADS-B out AND in and not have to wait in a long queue as the deadline gets near. Living near DC and flying through the SFRA regularly, the airspace environment really dictated that I needed be ADS-B compliant. Will there be a lower cost option if I waited...If I were a betting man the answer would be yes. However for me, the timing and easy of integration with my 430W, it made sense to just bite the bullet and pay the light bill at Garmin. I'll post more pics as the process moves forward. I'm looking forward to having the full traffic picture, subscription free weather displayed on the 430W and my iPad. Along with the ability to plan and download info from the iPad directly into the 430W. Not to mention an engine monitor that serves as a primary replacement for all the old Mortiz gauges. They'll still be connected and functioning, but not required. More to follow... 11 Jan update…CGR-30P, Flight Stream and GDL 88 not quite Installed, but roughed in. 1 Quote
ArtVandelay Posted January 9, 2015 Report Posted January 9, 2015 Ditto for me too, have you decided where you are putting the Flightstream? Garmin recommends under the seat, but I don't like that option, seems like it could get damaged too easily Quote
rbridges Posted January 9, 2015 Report Posted January 9, 2015 give us a pirep when you can about the new engine monitor. I have a UBG16 which I like alot, but I'd like to go with something that can be primary for fuel. I was leery to go with one of the smaller units, so I'd like to see what you think. Quote
DanM20C Posted January 9, 2015 Report Posted January 9, 2015 Looking forward to your pirep on the gdl 88 and flightstream paired with your 430. I've been thinking a lot about this upgrade. Quote
M016576 Posted January 9, 2015 Report Posted January 9, 2015 Flightstream 210 certainly is compelling to me with a 430W, if you use Garmin Pilot- talk about a big step up in user-friendly interface. Seems like you get a better user interface than the 750... But without the 17k installed price tag! Quote
Marauder Posted January 9, 2015 Report Posted January 9, 2015 Flightstream 210 certainly is compelling to me with a 430W, if you use Garmin Pilot- talk about a big step up in user-friendly interface. Seems like you get a better user interface than the 750... But without the 17k installed price tag! The big advantage for the Flightstream product is the ability to download the flight plan to the navigator AND upload to Garmin Pilot any changes you make on the navigator during flight. That was what always irritated me about the portable device - keeping it in sync. As well, the GDL-88 will allow the upload of weather to GP and provides the AHRS for the portable. Now if the GDL only worked with the Aspens, I'd sign up in a second. 1 Quote
John Pleisse Posted January 9, 2015 Report Posted January 9, 2015 Now if the GDL only worked with the Aspens, I'd sign up in a second. Because Garmin won't let anyone play in the sandbox. Thank goodness for Aspen, Avidyne, the resurgence of King and others. 3 Quote
Marauder Posted January 9, 2015 Report Posted January 9, 2015 Because Garmin won't let anyone play in the sandbox. Thank goodness for Aspen, Avidyne, the resugence of King and others. I agree. Now if they can only crack the secret decoder ring Garmin has. Quote
GeorgePerry Posted January 10, 2015 Author Report Posted January 10, 2015 Ditto for me too, have you decided where you are putting the Flightstream? Garmin recommends under the seat, but I don't like that option, seems like it could get damaged too easily I am letting the shop decide. There's no real interface with the 210 so under the dash seems like a good place. Quote
slowflyin Posted January 10, 2015 Report Posted January 10, 2015 I installed the CGR30P this spring and like it. After two JPI installs I was reluctant to change be with limited panel space the CGR seemed like a great fit. It's primary on my 70 F for everything except the fuel pressure. They offer a separate gauge as a work around but I opted to keep my Tach and MP/FP for redundancy so it wasn't an issue. There are a few things I don't like as well but in general it was really about getting used to it after flying JPI for so many years. One example, the fuel flow is on a different screen than the LOP or ROP function. I'm a "big pull" guy and only use fuel flow for leaning but others may find this not very user friendly. The only other minor issue is the normalization mode. JPI levels indicators and reduces the scale making them extremely sensitive. This is great for checking mags and cruise flight. The CGR displays an average of the values since the beginning of time. Not sure there is any increase in sensitivity. I need to give them a ring as it may be I'm just confused. Never the less I used the normalized mode all the time with my JPI and I never use it with the CGR. Would I choose the CGR again? Absolutely http://mooneyspace.com/gallery/image/35878-left-panel/ http://mooneyspace.com/gallery/image/35880-/ 1 Quote
Bob_Belville Posted January 10, 2015 Report Posted January 10, 2015 I have had the GDL 88 for 2 years. Glad I did it then, I've had the benefits of free weather and traffic and ADS-B compliant. But I really like the JPI EDM 930. everything on one (large) display, everything primary. Quote
donkaye Posted January 11, 2015 Report Posted January 11, 2015 I am letting the shop decide. There's no real interface with the 210 so under the dash seems like a good place. You're doing the best thing by installing it with the upgrade. The 210 was not available when I did my upgrade. so the install was quite a bit more expensive. We installed it on the avionics rack in the back because there was only a short run to the GDL 69A and GDL 88. The tough one was running it forward to the GTN 750, but I did the install with the installation of the Alpha Systems AOA, and the interface box was also installed in the rear. I'd attached a picture of it but Mooneyspace is not at all as convenient as Beechtalk for quickly adding an attachment. If it is, maybe someone can tell me how to do it without having to load the pictures in a special area first, something I don't want to do. I can't emphasize enough the benefit of the AOA!!! Quote
donkaye Posted January 11, 2015 Report Posted January 11, 2015 Thanks for the information on how to upload pictures. These 2 show the Alpha Systems Interface box mounted vertically and the Valkyrie HUD on the Glareshield. The Flight Stream 210 is mounted in front of the item with the Cable marked KAA15, but you can't see it in this photo. I'll take a picture of it when I go to the plane. Quote
Mooneymite Posted January 11, 2015 Report Posted January 11, 2015 I can't emphasize enough the benefit of the AOA!!! Don, would you like to tell us why you like/need an AOA..... I've flown aircraft with AOA's for years and have to tell you I rarely look at the thing. About the only time I even scan it is during re-currents in the sim when we do the stall series and occasionally in the aircraft when doing holding. For day to day operations both in the jets and flying my Mooney, flying the proscribed airspeeds is all I need; the AOA only confirms that I'm flying the right speed. I've never had it tell me something I didn't already know. While I would say the AOA might be a "nice to have" gizmo, I certainly would never classify it as a "need to have" once the aircraft has been certified and the appropriate speeds documented. Perhaps if I flew the Mooney "on the edge", but in normal ops, I'd rarely look at the thing unless my AS went out, but even then, I know the proper pitch/power combinations such that I could land without either. Why do I need one? 1 Quote
ArtVandelay Posted January 11, 2015 Report Posted January 11, 2015 I'm with Mooneymite, other than as early stall warning, I don't see the benefit Quote
carusoam Posted January 12, 2015 Report Posted January 12, 2015 Nice photo indicating the O2 bottle and battery removal challenge on the co pilot side... Somebody mentioned in another thread... Best regards, -a- Quote
donkaye Posted January 12, 2015 Report Posted January 12, 2015 Nice photo indicating the O2 bottle and battery removal challenge on the co pilot side... Somebody mentioned in another thread... Best regards, -a- There's another opening on the other side for that battery removal. 1 Quote
donkaye Posted January 12, 2015 Report Posted January 12, 2015 Don, would you like to tell us why you like/need an AOA..... I've flown aircraft with AOA's for years and have to tell you I rarely look at the thing. About the only time I even scan it is during re-currents in the sim when we do the stall series and occasionally in the aircraft when doing holding. For day to day operations both in the jets and flying my Mooney, flying the proscribed airspeeds is all I need; the AOA only confirms that I'm flying the right speed. I've never had it tell me something I didn't already know. While I would say the AOA might be a "nice to have" gizmo, I certainly would never classify it as a "need to have" once the aircraft has been certified and the appropriate speeds documented. Perhaps if I flew the Mooney "on the edge", but in normal ops, I'd rarely look at the thing unless my AS went out, but even then, I know the proper pitch/power combinations such that I could land without either. Why do I need one? With all the airspeed charts for various weights and conditions on the jets (at least the Citations that I have flown) it sounds like you wouldn't need it. We don't have all those charts compiled for the Mooney. Do you "need" an AOA for the Mooney? No. But airspeed can vary up up to 15 knots for various weights in the Mooney. I used to do gross calculations for landing weight and adjust my approach speed accordingly. I don't do that any more. I check the donut look at the speed and fly that speed while monitoring the donut. The donut is set for 1.3 Vso. I feel very comfortable flying 1.2 Vso (the upper half of the donut) in smooth conditions. The pitch attitude is a bit higher than I have taught in the past, and of course, more power is required, since you are behind the power curve a little more. The difference is close to 6 knots. This makes for a significant difference in landing distances. Could I do this before? Yes, but not with the accuracy and comfort level that I have now for all weights between heavy and light. However, if you want to continue with guesstimates, that's certainly up to you. It worked for me for 22 years. 2 Quote
Mooneymite Posted January 12, 2015 Report Posted January 12, 2015 And I guess that's the point. "Close enough." I don't fly my Mooney "on the edge". As a matter of fact, I take care not to. I don't ever need to go into short fields, land on carriers (any more) or fly on the verge of a stall. 100% of my operations allow a safe operation at air speeds covered by my POH. I've been operating my Mooney this way for the past 17 years and never had an occasion where I thought an AOA would make mine a safer operation. Not once. I'm sure there are folk who need the precision of a perfectly calibrated AOA, but two questions come to mind: what operations require this precision and is a Mooney really an appropriate aircraft for short-field precision landings? (Might need one with a tail hook!) I would like to hear more about your benefits derived from the AOA. Are you just using it for landing/approach speeds, or is it a teaching tool for pilots transitioning to the Mooney? For someone who has never had an AOA, seeing how AOA changes with apparent GW and in turbulence might be a great lesson. 1 Quote
donkaye Posted January 12, 2015 Report Posted January 12, 2015 And I guess that's the point. "Close enough." I don't fly my Mooney "on the edge". As a matter of fact, I take care not to. I don't ever need to go into short fields, land on carriers (any more) or fly on the verge of a stall. 100% of my operations allow a safe operation at air speeds covered by my POH. I've been operating my Mooney this way for the past 17 years and never had an occasion where I thought an AOA would make mine a safer operation. Not once. I'm sure there are folk who need the precision of a perfectly calibrated AOA, but two questions come to mind: what operations require this precision and is a Mooney really an appropriate aircraft for short-field precision landings? (Might need one with a tail hook!) I would like to hear more about your benefits derived from the AOA. Are you just using it for landing/approach speeds, or is it a teaching tool for pilots transitioning to the Mooney? For someone who has never had an AOA, seeing how AOA changes with apparent GW and in turbulence might be a great lesson. I think you are doing a disservice to our community by criticizing the use of an AOA. First of all they are not that expensive. In addition to providing a more accurate way of determining approach speeds at various weights, CG position and DA, it also allows quick determination of Vx, Vy, maximum endurance, maximum range, Vg, and especially the ability of avoid accelerated stalls. While accelerated stalls are not a usual occurrence, an inadvertent one could be deadly and has lead to many an accident. I can only recommend putting one in and using it. Only Phil Verghese and I have put one in so far as I know. Both of us are flight instructors and I think I speak for Phil, too, when I say we are very glad to have this additional tool. I attended a seminar in Oshkosh last summer where a number of Universities discussed using them in their flight programs. Quote
Mooneymite Posted January 12, 2015 Report Posted January 12, 2015 I think you are doing a disservice to our community by criticizing the use of an AOA. First of all they are not that expensive. Criticizing the use? Not at all. Mine was an open invitation to you and any other advocate to promote, or explain the need for an AOA system for the typical Mooney operator. I'm just being quite candid that for someone who operates their Mooney as I do, I just don't get it. I don't conduct, or even attend university flight programs,but I certainly see where AOA data is useful for such. That is not criticizing anyone. Far from it. I just like simplicity..... 4 Quote
donkaye Posted January 12, 2015 Report Posted January 12, 2015 Criticizing the use? Not at all. Mine was an open invitation to you and any other advocate to promote, or explain the need for an AOA system for the typical Mooney operator. I'm just being quite candid that for someone who operates their Mooney as I do, I just don't get it. I don't conduct, or even attend university flight programs,but I certainly see where AOA data is useful for such. That is not criticizing anyone. Far from it. To see the value of an AOA all one has to do is go up, slow to about 100 knots, bank 30°, and load the wing with back pressure until you hear the stall warning. Then look at the speed that the stall warning comes on. As most people know from their initial flight training, it will be significantly higher than in level flight, since the stall speed increases as the square root of the load factor. The AOA will show you immediately the developing problem independent of the airspeed indicator, whose level flight stall indication is now incorrect. Quote
Mooneymite Posted January 12, 2015 Report Posted January 12, 2015 Yep. Great demonstration. And a nice tool for a primary flight instructor! Quote
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