adamsboomer Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 I am curious as to how you guys practice engine out scenarios. My CHT's hover around 400 in the summer in the pattern, my mooney instructor beat into my head not to pull the power back too far for too long and cool the engine too much (prolonged descents), what is your guy's opinions on the short duration and complete idle of engine out practice on downwind? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrwilson Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 I keep the cowl flaps closed once I pull power, which probably doesn't do much, then open them on the ground. I try just to be steady and slow with power reductions. If I'm staying in the pattern, I slowly reduced power below 25 once entering pattern altitude and keep coming back slowly on downwind. Once I get to about 17 inches, I cut power to about 12 inches, which is about base. I leave it there until short final. Jpi isn't yelling at me about cooling rates so it seems to work, although my chts are a bit lower than yours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamsboomer Posted January 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 Agreed however I am asking specifically when attempting to simulate engine out procedures. In short, I am comfortable landing normally but would like to practice engine out landings without breaking engine and having to do an actual engine out landing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 Typical CFI approach was to add throttle briefly to make sure it is running every now and then... Keep in mind it makes sense to keep gear stowed to stretch the glide... Also keep in mind that this can demonstrate the human shortcoming of distraction, followed by a GU landing... Talk with your instructor about this in advance... Best regards, -a- I am not a CFI, but I have flown with one before... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1964-M20E Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 IMHO I do not think it is an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N201MKTurbo Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 If I'm practicing, I will slow to slow flight speed to let the engine stabilize at a cool temperature before pulling it to idle. FWIW.... The temperature change rate you get by pulling the throttle to idle is nothing compared to the temperature change rate you get on takeoff... I have also found that if you set up LOP and leave it there. The CHT change is much less, you can go to full throttle without issue and it is enough power for a go around. If you need more then push the mixture in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ncdmtb Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 I just had a check flight a few weeks ago in Germany with an examiner of the LBA (german equiv FAA). I had to do the check flight in a D-registered aircraft so I couldn't use my Mooney (did it in a C172). We did engine out - and he actually had me turn the engine off. We then brought the plane into a high nose up attitude to get the prop to stop turning. Then I had a few minutes to circle to land. Has anyone done similar? First for me... Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 Proof that Euro CFIs have bigger.... Insurance policies! You have to do what you have to do... Of course it doesn't make sense to add the additional risk with no real gain from the exercise. It takes a higher level of familiarity in a plane that you don't intend to fly... We usually debate the similar challenges of engine out landings in a Mooney. The chance of a gear up landing increases with the level stress that comes with the territory. We did not do actual engine out practice in my initial training in the mid '90s. The flight school didn't want the risk that came with that. The objective of a real engine out off field landing is to live. Demonstrating that you can choose a field, identify where the wind is coming from and slow to landing speed can be done with the engine running... There is a math exercise that can be used to define whether stopping the prop to increase the glide ratio. You would need to know a fair amount about the plane's characteristics to do that as well. Did you pass? Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 I have done simulated engine out landings to a full stop in my C model, during Flight Reviews with my instructor and at MAPA PPP with their instructor. My CFI, not a Mooney person [now flying for the airlines], was very nervous about it, so I pulled the throttle out on downwind at a Class C field 6500' long and flew my normal pattern, flaps and gear down as always. The only difference is I turned base a little bit early, but that's a judgment call every time anyway. For the PPP, with a Mooney-knowledgeable CFII, he pulled the throttle entering downwind for the third time to his home field, 2440 x 40 feet. Apparently he liked that I wasn't bothered by the small field, as my home field was 3000 x 70 with trees obscuring both ends. At least on this one, I could see the end of the runway all the way down base and final. On these, I dropped my gear at the normal spot [abeam my intended point of landing], with Takeoff Flaps already selected. Just don't fly a long downwind. Learning on a short field, the base turn was at 700 agl and final at 500 agl, beginning with the end of the runway 45º over my left shoulder. I try to do that standard pattern every time, even if I have to count altitude on my fingers, and make the altitude match the position. Would I do a simulated engine out descent from altitude? Not without occasion burps to keep the engine clear, with carb heat on all the way down. My normal descent is to touch nothing, just push for 500 fpm and trim to maintain it. Then every now and then I will reduce throttle to my previous cruise setting, and richen mixture to the cruise setting [as both rise during descent]. On my PPL checkride in a Cessna, I set up my engine out demonstration, picked a nice field and on the way down picked a different one and explained why. With flaps 10º and just a few hundred feet up, I asked if I could go around and the DPE said not yet, he would let me know. So I kept going, figuring he knew what he was doing. When I pushed flaps to 20º and slowed another 5 knots, he decided I had the soybean field made and we went around. I did another one in the pattern to a full stop. From pattern altitude, it should not be a problem for your engine. Just be sure it's not a problem for YOU, and that you don't turn it into a problem for the airplane. If something isn't right, don't try to save it--push in power, go around and try again. Now that I've been in the land of the mile-long runway for almost a year, I probably need to do some more as my landings are getting sloppy and long. I often make the mid-field turnoff, but sometimes miss it by a stripe . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 Proof that Euro CFIs have bigger.... Insurance policies! Best regards, -a- Hmmm, I seem to recall that MAPA made me add them as named insured to MY insurance policy for the PPP's, which both included simulated-engine-out landings to full stop . . . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliffy Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 My how times have changed- when I did my Commercial check ride in 1964 I spent 45 mins with the retired head of the local FAA GADO doing spins in my Cessna 140. No problems, no insurance, no issues. Did full stalls while climbing and turning with 30 degree banks also. My, my, how times have changed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 Times have changed Cliffy, No seat belts in your car. Don't want to muss your work shirt. Sharing your last soft pack of smokes was considered a nice gesture. Drum brakes made a nice suggestion that the car may stop in some unavailable distance. A four speed transmission was an upgrade. Four on the floor in place of three on the tree... Your AM radio could be upgraded to receive FM signals with a device known as a converter. There wasn't stereo with that. The car only had one central speaker anyway. Would you want to go back..? I'd like to get airbags for the O... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WardHolbrook Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 My how times have changed- when I did my Commercial check ride in 1964 I spent 45 mins with the retired head of the local FAA GADO doing spins in my Cessna 140. No problems, no insurance, no issues. Did full stalls while climbing and turning with 30 degree banks also. My, my, how times have changed. Spin entries and recoveries prior to solo was quite common as well and most guys were soloed at between 6 and 10 hours. Yes, times have changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 Times have changed Cliffy, No seat belts in your car. Don't want to muss your work shirt. Sharing your last soft pack of smokes was considered a nice gesture. Drum brakes made a nice suggestion that the car may stop in some unavailable distance. A four speed transmission was an upgrade. Four on the floor in place of three on the tree... Your AM radio could be upgraded to receive FM signals with a device known as a converter. There wasn't stereo with that. The car only had one central speaker anyway. Would you want to go back..? I'd like to get airbags for the O... Best regards, -a- And don't forget the best part of that era -- you were a baby! -- if you were even alive then... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 That is '80s experience working a summer job on a used car lot in Mass... I got to pick up some really classic rides from across the state. The F100 pickup had the three on the tree and a really worn clutch. In 2000 I was fortunate to fly my 65C. I think these are MY memories, -a- Chris, for the record...DoB '65, my plane was four months older than me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonal Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 I would not mind a bit let's see I'd have a 69 super bird with a 426 or a 70 Cuda with same a 69 boss 302 and a 69 Z28 with a 302. That Superbird would be worth more than a prime condition Ovation so yeah I would not mind one bit. I saw where a 1962 Ferrari 250 GTO sold for over 30 million dollars. I met the guy that bought it back in the late 70's at the Monterey historic races at Laguna Seca he paid 18 thousand for that car. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 I just had a check flight a few weeks ago in Germany with an examiner of the LBA (german equiv FAA). I had to do the check flight in a D-registered aircraft so I couldn't use my Mooney (did it in a C172). We did engine out - and he actually had me turn the engine off. We then brought the plane into a high nose up attitude to get the prop to stop turning. Then I had a few minutes to circle to land. Has anyone done similar? First for me... Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk During training eventssuch as BFR's and checkouts, I occasionally shut down the engine in flight at altitude, and within gliding distance to an airport. I do not stop the prop, although I will pull the knob back fully. . To get into it, I shut the fuel selector off and demonstrate what it looks like to have a flameout due to starved fuel tank (zero fuel pressure), and then I go through the relight procedure so as not to overspeed the prop. After that is out of the way, i put it back at idle and continue on with the forced landing scenario. Followed by a go-around, obviously. Its not a big deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bd32322 Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 I do engine out practice with the gear down. I pull power from downwind and turn straight to the runway after continuing on downwind a little. Once pointed at the runway I will do additional flaps or turns to get the height right. As for the engine - I slow it down gradually and never push the mixture in all the way - I adjust the mixture to try and keep the temps at about the same or slightly less - ending at full rich on short final. Can someone explain why some CFIs periodically bump the throttle? Does it apply to fuel injected engines? or just carbureted ones? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonal Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 Can someone explain why some CFIs periodically bump the throttle? Does it apply to fuel injected engines? or just carbureted ones? I was told that its to help prevent carb ice formation and also plug fowling. when I went for my PPI check ride we diverted to an alternate field. after some different takeoff variations, short field etc. we were departing once again at about 50ft AGL my inspector pulled mixture to idle cutoff to see what I would do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1964-M20E Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 I’ve heard have been taught this as well to "clear the engine". I do not think it applies to fuel injected engines and I suspect this came from the big carbureted radials but that is just a guess. I think therefore I could be wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloridaMan Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 The greatest thermal stress on your engine is when you take the runway and apply full power. Also, I don't mind doing my "engine out" practice with the gear down. I know I can get the plane to the ground. If hot and high, slow to 85mph and drop like a rock in a slip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike28w Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 It seems to me that if rapid cooling were an issue , then flying into a rainstorm would be extremely detrimental. (Imagine hot engine and cool rain and evaporation.) Never heard of ruining your engine by flying into rain..... just my 2 cents...mike Good question, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 Clearing the engine does apply to fuel injected motors as well. They are not designed to be driven by the prop for 2-3 minutes or more, such as engine failure in cruise practice. Aside from the rapid cooling, they can load up with fuel and foul plugs etc. At 500' when you go-around is not the time to discover your engine isnt making power. Just check it a couple times on the way down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bd32322 Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 Clearing the engine does apply to fuel injected motors as well. They are not designed to be driven by the prop for 2-3 minutes or more, such as engine failure in cruise practice. Aside from the rapid cooling, they can load up with fuel and foul plugs etc. At 500' when you go-around is not the time to discover your engine isnt making power. Just check it a couple times on the way down. Not sure how clearing it helps anything other than dump more fuel (if already rich) and then go back to idle immediately. Wont fix a fouled plug. It helps to not go to full rich I suppose as some advocate, but that also leads to surprises if you are not used to pushing in the mixture first. When will people accept fadec and we can lose the mixture knob Probably never, we like fiddling with our gadgets too much Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 Well today, for example, steep spirals. After a minute or so, adding throttle to the engine results in rough running and stumbling for a few seconds before it would make smooth, significant power. And that's with the mixture leaned to approximately peak EGT. Then it smooths out and runs fine. Id rather have it quit or falter at 1500' than 500'. IDK why they do that, but they do. Perhaps the running at 5" or less MP pulls so much oil off the cylinder walls and the markedly lower chamber temps, it fouls the plugs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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