First Annual Inspection

[Guest]

This is because most aviation businesses and most managers in aviation are totall A S S H O L E S ....very few if any businesses are capable of doing the right thing.  Most lie cheat and steal.  I have seen it from Cessna operations to Gulfstream charter to 121........All you can do is hope that when its your turn in the barrel that you don't get hurt or die.......

 

You would not think it works that way in 121 but politicians and regulatory agencies are paid off for corporate interests all of the time.

 

Have you ever heard of the cargo cutout for 121.......

Jim,

Not all are as you describe. Have you ever run an aircraft maintenance shop? I do and I can tell you that not all customers, owners and pilots are princes to deal with either.

Those of us trying to do it right and maintain airplanes in a safe condition get blasted when the bill gets big, it's never the owners fault for cheating out for years neglecting his " pride and joy". Good maintenance is not cheap, cheap maintenance costs even more.

My suggestion is to vett out the shop carefully, ask for references, ask the regulator if the shop has had violations.

Good luck,

Clarence

[Jim Peace]

Jim,

Not all are as you describe. Have you ever run an aircraft maintenance shop? I do and I can tell you that not all customers, owners and pilots are princes to deal with either.

Those of us trying to do it right and maintain airplanes in a safe condition get blasted when the bill gets big, it's never the owners fault for cheating out for years neglecting his " pride and joy". Good maintenance is not cheap, cheap maintenance costs even more.

My suggestion is to vett out the shop carefully, ask for references, ask the regulator if the shop has had violations.

Good luck,

Clarence

Clarence,,,,

 

if you read my post you would see that I wrote MOST...not ALL......regarding the unscrupulous people in this business.

 

If you and I agreed on the work to be done and I brought you the plane and it was 7k just in labor alone and I supplied all the parts would you not want to wrench on it as agreed?

 

I am over 18 days now and still not one screw removed from the cowling....I am being held hostage to this "oh so special MSC" now....

 

I am thousands of miles away from the plane and it is past its annual date.......I don't owe this guy money and I don't know him so I can't see why he is doing this for any personal reasons....

 

I am confused and pissed off at the world right now and the only outcome is its going to cost me money.....and I will not have my plane..........

 

Please anyone considering a MSC just forget it...go to your local mechanic.......participate in the process......at least the job will get started........

[jetdriven]

I can see 2k for labor on an annual. But what's the other 5k for?

[Jim Peace]

the SB for corrosion and I wanted to get a corrosion treatment and then replace all hoses firewall forward and then move an antenna replace a headliner and a bunch of other stuff.....3 pages worth on the estimate that I am fine with.....I believe in being proactive with mx and the $$ was never in question.......at least not yet.....

 

I truly feel that I am being taken advantage of but at the moment there is nothing I can do.  

 

I am screwed 

 

I will never consider a MSC again...........

[Jerry 5TJ]

I can see 2k for labor on an annual. But what's the other 5k for?

It takes 25 - 30 hours for the basic inspection.   Shop rates around here are at or above $100.  

So $2,500 to $3,000 is fair if they do nothing but open the plane up properly, have a look around, find nothing wrong, and put it back together. 

 

I agree with others that an owner assisted annual, under the eye of an experienced IA, is a good way to learn more about the plane.  As the owner/mechanic I find I will spend hours (or days) to fix small issues, but I can imagine complaining if an A&P charged me his shop rate the same number of hours to fix that same detail.  

[Sabremech]

Sorry you're having issues Jim. Knowing the issues you have right now and they haven't even started on your plane, I can imagine it's only going to get worse. I'd move it in a heartbeat out of their hangar and get it out of there.

I'm fortunate to be an A&P/IA and do all of my own maintenance. I agree that just because the MSC label is on their door doesn't necessarily make it the best.

David

[Jim Peace]

 I'd move it in a heartbeat out of their hangar and get it out of there.

 

I would to but if you read my posts you would understand that I can't.......

[ArtVandelay]

I would to but if you read my posts you would understand that I can't.......

I still don't understand, if they haven't started, then you owe them nothing (you said they haven't turn a wrench), invest the time to get a ferry permit, fly the plane to a new mechanic, move on.

If they haven't done any work, you owe nothing, only a few weeks of flying time is lost. Sounds like a hostile relationship and it's not going to get better on its own.

[Jim Peace]

I still don't understand, if they haven't started, then you owe them nothing (you said they haven't turn a wrench), invest the time to get a ferry permit, fly the plane to a new mechanic, move on.

If they haven't done any work, you owe nothing, only a few weeks of flying time is lost. Sounds like a hostile relationship and it's not going to get better on its own.

Do you live near your plane?  yes or no?

 

I don't, several thousand miles away in-fact......The logistics of this is crazy......but I may try 

[Mooneymite]

Where is the plane? Maybe someone on Mooneyspace would be willing to ferry the plane for you?

I mean, we've all watched that show about repossessing airplanes. 

[bonal]

We're I in your situation I would get the ferry permit and find someone to relocate your Mooney. There are plenty of shops that have pilot services I'm sure someone on MS could recommend a shop that has a good rep that could help. As I have said before I hate annuals but I understand the need for inspection. Good luck and to the original poster both top gun and lake aero are first class and won't take advantage.

[gsxrpilot]

I've used Don Maxwell's shop for my annual and pre-buy, but then a local A&P for misc squawks that come up.  I've been very happy with his work. And I'm sure his reputation is impeccable. I know he's got pilot services available as well to go get a plane and bring it to his shop in Texas. I used them for the pre-buy. I know his price for an annual on the C if not fixing anything is $1895.

 

Maxwell is an MSC of course.

[urbanti]

Jim - if it was my plane, even if it was inconvenient, I would get a ferry permit and have the plane moved rather than continue with a process with a shop where you clearly don't feel good about the relationship.

My local MSC, Freeway Aviation in Bowie, MD is really outstanding. My job won't allow me to be there to assist on annuals, but the staff at Freeway are very communicative and we have a thorough understanding between us on timing and cost before the plane is delivered for the annual.

But most importantly, I feel good about the shop and the people and that makes everything go more smoothly.

I hope that you can connect with a shop who can provide this feeling of synergy.

best

Tim

[Cruiser]

At this point I would contact Mike Busch of Saavy Aviator and let them manage the maintenance work for you. At least get someone else to work with the shop so you get the emotion out of the way

[MB65E]

We're all here to help Jim! Between everyone here we of know good techs in every state.

If it was in SoCal if be willing to talk with the shop for you.

Ownership is a commitment,

-Matt

[Cyril Gibb]

Just as with plumbers, dentists and every other occupation, there are no doubt good MSCs and less good MSCs.

Some of the reportedly best ones have been identified through this thread and others on Mooney Space.

I've recently had my first annual on my "new to me" M20F done by Clarence.  It was an owner assist (probably I was getting in the way more than assisting).

I couldn't be more pleased with the thoroughness, attention to detail and specific Mooney knowledge shown.

I think it's far too general to suggest avoiding all MSCs.  Perhaps just follow recommendations found on Mooney Space.

If you have poor experiences with an MSC beyond just misunderstandings, help the rest of us by naming names.

[xrs135]

So back to the original question really quick - IF I choose to go with a MSC, it would be between LASAR and Top Gun. I know people have been happy with LASAR, but what about Top Gun? Has anybody had good/bad experiences with them? Top Gun would be more convenient for me location-wise.

[carusoam]

Jim,

Would I recomend you as a customer to my MSC....?

I sense your pain.

I don't believe you are handling the situation as well as you are capable of.

MSCs are an excellent resource...

They are not Fortune 500 companies.

They are not run by a fairy godmother.

Having a plane with a history of Annuals done at an MSC adds value. (For some)

Bringing an old Mooney with no history of annuals done at an MSC can be incredibly expensive. Yes, it comes from my experience on my '65 C.

The best source of maintenance for a Mooney is an MSC. It still requires a fair amount of owner's effort to make it work as expected...

The more hands off you are, the more expensive it gets...

Phone calls work better than emails for critical things.

Emails work great confirming things that get discussed....

What works from an MS point of view....

It's all about communication. Getting your point across without the haze of the written word...

Be hands on. Talk to the people in person. Come to an agreement. Receive what you expect.

As for haze, your written words may be a bit stronger than you intend, at least from a reader's point of view.

Best regards,

-a-

[Jim Peace]

 Come to an agreement. Receive what you expect.

 

Ah here lies the problem......We came to an agreement and I am not getting anything.......

 

Thanks for chiming in...........

[carusoam]

now you are making a good point...

Best regards,

-a-

[bonal]

Original question, Top gun is a great shop and even though they are close enough to be competitors Lake Aero and top gun work together in mutual support of each others customers. I dont know if Top Gun allows owner assist. I can see that Stockton is closer than Lakeport. hopefully you will be able to make the time to be on hand for at least part of the task

[N601RX]

It may be that there is some of the work that they just are not interested in doing such as the headliner.  Perhaps it would be best to just tell them to forget about all the extras and just do the annual if you are unable to move the plane anywhere else.  Much of the extra stuff you mentioned can be legally done by the owner.

[Jim Peace]

Just spoke to the owner of the shop.  A ferry permit will be applied for.  Of course he said they are charging me for it, we will see if he steps up and does the right thing and not charge me for a bullshit inspection.  Plane will be flown out on Saturday if the permit comes back by Friday afternoon.

 

Mooney is monitoring this with me.  I hope I get back my log books and 100% of the parts I left in the plane.  Log books are all on PDF right to the last page but originals would be nice.

 

Update to follow............

[Cruiser]

where are you going to fly it to and how do you know you won't have similar problems there?

[Jim Peace]

where are you going to fly it to and how do you know you won't have similar problems there?

Plane being flown to VNY....will get all work done by my usual mechanic probably weeks from now.  Did not do this originally because politics and the small planes and the contractor for the prop park that has VNY all torn up to this date still does not allow access to my mechanics hangar.  

 

When I decided to use a MSC I figured my plane has not been to one in a long time and being that my mechanic is out of commission with his hangar this would be a perfect time for an "expert" inspection.  Being that the MSC is not anxious to take my money and has no plans to I will just take my plane back and wait until it can be done in my mechanics hangar.  At this point I don't care about time anymore.  Thank you MSC.

 

I really tried to do the "right" thing and what a few people here would call the "smart" thing by having a MSC do the mx.  But I feel like I am being taken advantage of and I have a feeling in the pit of my stomach that I should get it the hell out of there.  I did not mind the quote and the money was already to be signed away.  All that had to be done was the work.  But it was not being done or even started nearly 3 weeks later so I am moving on with lessons learned.

 

Lesson number 1.  MSC sign on side of building or being listed on the Mooney site as a MSC means absolutely nothing then at one time and in some cases long ago they sent or hired a

                               mechanic that went through a factory meet and greet.  That mechanic may not even be working there anymore.  But the business gets to keep the sign they hang on their

                               building.

 

Lesson number 2.  Get in writing the start date and the estimated completion date of work to be performed.  Just because a place "says" they will be helpful means nothing to litigators.

 

Lesson number 3.  If starting an annual away from home base do not start it near the end of being legal.  Leave some time incase you have to fly it away without getting a ferry permit.

 

Lesson number 4.  If you are going to do something crazy like trust a business just because they say they are a MSC, get on mooneyspace and see if anyone has ever heard of them or can

                               vouch for them.  If not, don't walk away RUN.......away.