Just saying hello and asking a few questions

[scoobysmak]

Well just wanted to say hello and thank the admin and mods for having this forum.  For now you can say I am a bit of a dreamer so I expect to be brought back to reality.  I am looking for an economical plane but yet something that can handle IFR fairly well and the faster I get to my destination the better.  I would normally be flying around 450 nm trips in the southeast but could see trips all over the US, Alaska, Canada, Mexico and Bahamas on the radar.  I would say 45% of the time it would be just me, another 35% of the time the wife would be with me, 10% our son that is almost 7 would be with us, and the last 10% might be 4 adults for shorter trips (450 nm or less).  I realize that with anything more than 2 adults and a child (say under the age of 13) that I might have to plan my route for pit stops.  Honestly anything with the wife I probably need to land at around the 4 hour mark or she might get a little bit uh.....upset with mother nature (then of course me).  I know some about aircraft but never really got into the rules and regulations to know what I could or could not do (STC, TSO and the true definitions are not something I now how to find or what I am looking for but should learn).  With that being said I also do not have a pilots license at all, I understand that for an IFR plane with retract gear I will pay a premium until I have built up flight hours but I like to purchase what I want to use the first time and not the third.  I also see that there are instructors that are specific to mooneys and probably would go this route anyway. I plan to keep the plane as long as I can fly, hopefully at least another 30 plus years.

 

Here is my where my questions start, I would expect to spend a total of around 200K for a plane that suits me.  I don't really care about resale value but If selling a J model Vs an F model with 201 speed mods gives 30% percent more return for basically the same plane I would rather start with the J model anyway.  The only reason I see to buy an older plane, anything before the J model, is I would modify it for me anyway so why pay the extra for something I am going to replace.  For example I would like to put a nice glass cockpit in.  I would love to know if a Garmin G950 has an STC for a mooney M20 or if the G500/600 is the "best" I could get.  Why purchase the J model for the nice insturment layout when a week later the entire panel is replaced.  I would probably put any speed mod on I could for any model (within reason, $20k for a 1mph increase is not worth it but maybe 15mph or more would be).  I wouldn't care about paint at this point because it would get repainted anyway.  The last mod I would love to do is modify the plane for a delta-hawk 200HP diesel engine.  I called the company and they said they can't release what planes they are working on getting certified (if that is what you call it).  I give this engine a 50% chance of hitting the market, not sure the reality of getting it certified for a mooney.  I am pretty sure I would have to change the tanks at this point.  If I could cruise at 160 KTS and sip 7-8 gals an hour I would be pretty happy (not sure if this is realistic or not, some of this is based on an engine  that has only done test flights with the company and doesn't have any "true product evaluations" at this time).  Of course finding a plane in good condition so you have a nice foundation is usually the best way to go.  The only other thing I have found interesting is one site I visited talked about the M20F executive built in 1967 was the fastest due to the way they did the rivets, after this they started cutting cost and from 1968 and after the planes were about 5 mph slower?  If this is the case would a 1967 with speed mods be more econimical than an M20J?  I can't believe everything I read on the internet but figure someone here might give a better insight on this comment.

 

Just wonder anyones thoughts on the matter.

[DonMuncy]

Wow! You are looking way down the road. Mooneys will do everything you want, within the budget you have, except for the diesel engine conversion. That is not possible now or likely in the foreseeable future.

If I were you, I would keep reading this forum while you rent planes while getting your license. You probably don't want to beat up your own plane while training.

Once you get your license, you can revisit these questions with a better understanding of what your priorities are at that point.

[John Pleisse]

Delta Hawk is not an immediate reality in terms of STC's. $200K? Buy an A36....a nice one.

[KSMooniac]

Agree with Don.  Get your license first in a rented Cessna or Piper, then go shopping for a Mooney.  You likely won't save much money trying to learn from scratch in a Mooney.  You will benefit, however, from adding the instrument rating in your own Mooney.  Nearly any Mooney will work for your proposed missions.  

As of today, you cannot put a G950 or G3X or similar system in any Mooney.  That may or may not change in the future.  If you rent to get your license over the next year, that possibility might become clearer.  

 

I'd say there is a 10% chance we'll see diesel engine conversions for Mooneys any time in the next 10-15 years.  We're more likely to see un-leaded 100 octane avgas first, and that will remove most of the incentive for a diesel conversion.  The DeltaHawk looks promising, but it is heavy and making very slow progress towards certification.  It is very expensive just for the engine, and currently there is no engineering developed for such a conversion and that is also expensive.  There won't be much demand for a $70k engine to be installed on a $50k airplane.

 

And finally, used prices continue to slide, so waiting longer will likely get your more airplane for the money.

[Danb]

Agree with Don, in your budget your bringing in highly equipped Rockets,and based on the missions you aspire you'll need the speed,if you seriously want to learn in the plane you want for yrs, why not buy a close to run out high performance Mooney 200knots+' and after you learn in if then start your makeover,with new paint, interior, avionics to your liking and rebuilt engine. Your seven yr old will grow up and alone with your wife and ambitious desire to take long trips consider a long body you decide if you need a turbo..good luck..there is a lot of info avail. BTW A long body will rip the snot out of the A36...comfort and speed..this is the Mooney Forum..

[Jerry 5TJ]

If you have never owned a plane before a partnership could pay big dividends.

[Skywarrior]

While I like the Mooney Bravo (of course), it would prob. be overkill for your stated needs. I wanted a plane that could climb to 10k feet quickly, and that had lots of interior room. Reasons? My wife won't accompany me if there's extended turbulence - and I don't like to fly alone. Plus, I'm big.

 

Here's my suggestion: buy a used Cessna 150 and learn in it. Beat the snot out of it when you're learning to land. Get nice and sick of how damn slow it is. And get the license. Then sell the 150.

 

THEN... peruse the used A/C market again. I think you'll prob. gravitate back toward Mooneys... but who knows?

 

It can be titillating to read through airplane ads and dream... (a friend's wife calls them "airplane porn").

 

Another suggestion: Stay 'in the moment'. Set goals, like 1. Get PPL 2. Research used A/C market 3. Find financing (if needed) 4. Research insurance options

 

Don't be like me - I found an airplane I thought was really cool - even though I hadn't touched a control wheel in twenty years. I bought it and then had to slog through re-learning how to fly in an airplane that just seemed to be a beast.

 

Sure - *now* I feel comfortable flying it. But, ya know what? I prob. would have been just as happy patrolling the local cow pastures in a Piper Cub.

 

I guess I'm saying, "Don't put the cart before the horse."

[carusoam]

A 30 year plan is commendable!

Print this original post. Frame it. Mount it on the wall!

Refer to it annually, review it, enjoy it as things change... They will.

Know that 7 year old boys don't mind P-ing into the same Gatorade bottle that they just finished drinking out of...

Dad's will probably do the same if pressed.

Mom's typically won't fly a second time if you describe the Gatorade bottle program with them...

If I had $200k...

My wish list would include...

My PPL

My IR

The fastest, factory built, NA, single engine, retractable, low wing, aircraft

If I could have my way.

My wife would also be a pilot with an IR

Or at least be fully trained for that unthinkable moment.

The average price of growing a child is about $200k. If you only have one...

Think Ovation,

-a-

[scoobysmak]

Thanks for all the quick replies.  I will give a bit more background and ask "what would you do?"  I have a business partnership that in about 5 years I would expect to develop in to me making 450 nm trips every month to every other month (this is flying not driving).  To drive this takes me around 8-10 hours since its not a straight shot over the interstate system and that's if I don't get stuck in heavy traffic in areas like Atlanta.  I understand that flying the weather can set you back, I will be able to plan my trips a few days out and it would be at my leisure but I would rather spend 3-4 hours in transit than 8-10 each way.  The wife would probably travel with me about 1/3rd of the time if she overall didn't mind flying in a smaller plane (I asked her this and she said she wouldn't mind but I have seen some people just get out of a smaller aircraft that the wind has a greater effect and go, never again).  The son is actually a step son for me, its kinda complicated but the father has put his foot down about personal aircraft.  Not sure if his opinion would change but they pretty much have 50/50 custody so the wife does not want to jeopardize her visitation even though she believes he couldn't do anything about it, but law firms aren't cheap if he tried it.  This is another reason I can't move closer to the business partnership.  

 

I do kinda like the idea of getting a 150 to train in and then sell it, I would be tempted to take it the 450 nm though (I travel there about once every 4-6 months now).  Something with a bit more speed I think would help but honestly to leave town VFR is probably not smart unless I have the weather in my back pocket.  I should want to learn on "steam" gauges but admit I am an electronic gadget guy, love the glass cockpit and know that's what I want for the end product.  

 

That is part of the reason to modify a plane for me, if I am running 50% of the time by myself or with one adult, why get a long body?  They are newer but not sure if how much that really helps, in 1986-the mid 90's the glass cockpit wasn't really an option.  I saw a used 2005 M20M Bravo that had a Garmin 1000 installed, it cost $290k.  Say I bought a used M20J for $65k and upgraded the electronics for another $50k did a few speed mods like the one piece underbelly for another $10k.  I spent $125k for an aircraft that is more economical and less than half the price.  I would give up the Garmin 1000, some speed and probably comfort for more than 2 adults on board (including the pilot).  

 

(Cover your eyes if you don't want to see all the newbie questions)

Things that I have no clue about are maintenance cost for each, I am sure the 2005 wouldn't require as much at first but eventually if the part will wear out it would have to be replaced.   Not sure if the insurance for each plane would be about the same either?  When looking at adds I see the engine has say 976 hours on it under the column, SMOH (I am going to show my lack of knowledge but guess this means Since Major Over Haul)?  I have seen other statements like TBO of 2000 hours, I figure this is how many hours until you have to do a major over haul (is this considered a rebuild)?  I also was under the impression that you could only rebuild an engine once then you had to purchase a new one.  This was part of the delta hawk conversion thought process, looking at the website, it was pretty much $70k for the motor but even the comparative HP avgas engine cost 80% of this and didn't have all the parts (this is where I should revert back to my first post and look in the mirror, don't believe everything you read on the internet).  That $70k also included an engine monitoring system, looking at JPI, some of those are in the $4-8k range in price (not sure if its comparable though).

 

Overall I look at this as a hobby though, I will never re coupe all the money I would spend but it will make life easier in some respects, plus I have always wanted to fly myself.  Taking the airlines is for the birds, the freedom to go where I want when I want, weather permitting, is priceless.  I also agree that looking back 10 years ago I didn't see half the stuff in my life happen as planned, things change but I would rather put a plan together and change it than not have a plan at all.

[Bob - S50]

Yes, SMOH means Since Major Overhaul.  STOH means Since Top Overhaul (essentially the cylinders).

 

As far as I know, there is no limit on the number of times an engine can be overhauled as long as the parts still meet specs.

 

TBO stands for Time Between Overhaul.  It is what you can expect but is only a recommendation for private owners.  If you treat your engine well it could very well last for 3000 hours or more.  Or if you abuse it, or if the previous owner abused it, you might not even make it to 2000 hours.  You will want to fly it regularly, change the oil regularly, perform an oil analysis at oil changes, and have a good mechanic who will borescope the engine when warranted.  And not to open a can of worms, I think many will also say you'll want to fly Lean of Peak (LOP).  It not only saves fuel and money but reduces deposits that can cause problems.

 

The difference between 65% power at peak power settings as described in the POH and the same 65% power LOP is about 2 GPH or about $12/hours at current prices to go the same speed.

 

Not many "speed" mods for the 201 (J).  About the only one I know of would be the Lopreski cowling.  The one piece belly pan makes maintenance easier but doesn't really increase speed.  If I'm not mistaken it is also a bit heavier which will reduce useful load.  Gap seals probably make a minimal difference in speed.  If the diesel is heavy it may save money but will have a significant negative impact on useful load and CG.  Might limit the weight of two people who can sit in the front seats without ballast in the back for CG problems.

 

With our stock J I plan on 150k true on 8.7 GPH (65% power LOP).

 

Insurance cost for any given plane and insurance company will most likely be determined by two things: 1) your experience/ratings and 2) value of the plane.

 

Agree with learning on somebody else's plane or on a cheap C150 or Cherokee you buy.

 

Best of Luck,

 

Bob

[carusoam]

I admire the planning and thought process that is going on....

Mooney pilots that use their plane for business travel tend to focus on the ability to deploy their team in the widest of conditions that are available to a single, piston driven, engine...

Often they include the turbo and FIKI systems in their plan.

It would take a year to learn to fly.

Another year to add instrument skills.

A third year to add the experience of deploying into crappy weather.

Some people compress these times. But, they are not running a growing business at the same time.

We have an Acclaim owner here that is looking to trade in his plane for something faster. He works for a machine shop and travels the east coast often.

Another business owner here has gone from a K to an Acclaim.

Get started early. Plan for extra time. Focus on making more money, less on saving money...

Not everyone in your company will appreciate flying in a GA plane. Unless they are captive, like family!

Nobody will like hearing how you only paid 60k for an old bucket of rivets...

If it really gets used for business, talk to your accountant how to handle the finances. I used to use lease arrangements for clients that wanted an alternative to buying the machinery. Nice method of arranging monthly payments without a large down payment adsorbing a chunk of working capital.

Everything cost more than you will think.

What do you use for a company car? Cadillac (car) or Tahoe (sport ute)?

The modern work force is so used to large vehicles.

Keep in mind there will be limitations due to weather phenomena...as does a 450 mile drive...

Make it happen,

-a-

[scoobysmak]

Maybe I am misunderstanding your post a bit but the business aspect of flying is just me in the plane, unless the building gets legs and moves I have to fly to it.  No other company employee would be with me unless it was for pleasure anyway.  I looked at the M20K (think that is the 252), nice to cruise at around 180kts Vs the 150kts (reference from the J model planning posted above) but in my business trips it only saved me roughly 30 minutes and cost me more than a dollar per minute difference in just fuel; if fuel flow in Gals per hour is at 13.5 for the M20K and 8.7 for the M20J.  I am pretty sure the insurance and extra maint cost would add up as well for the M20K over the M20J.  Once I get a few hours under the belt flying IFR i would expect my normal cost to be around 10-12K a year just to have the plane, to fly it is extra (this is insurance, maint cost, hanger fees, and medical certifications).  At first I could see insurance being way more expensive but over time that should improve I would hope.  

 

I currently would have the plane in class C airspace, it does convert to class D airspace from 2350 until 0600 local time.  This is another need to upgrade the electronics when ADS-B gets enforced, still a few years away though.  

 

Maybe there is something I am overlooking but it appears the M20J is the best looking option for me at this moment.  Of course it will probably take me more than a year to get my PPL, I will have to re-evaluate all the options again but so far have always been drawn into the Mooneys.

 

The drive on the ground is just at 600 miles, the straight line path from airport to airport is 390 nmiles.  I gave some extra for following vector airways for IFR flight but don't know exactly how much further it would make the trip then a little more for getting in the landing sequence (I am sure I will learn more about this stuff while getting the PPL).  

 

I understand that maybe I am just plane crazy (sorry couldn't resist), I appreciate everyone's opinion, usually I find someone that is wearing the T-shirt has a much better understanding than someone looking in the store for one.  If there are things that most people overlook I am all ears.

[carusoam]

Get started training...

Keep reading...

Stay ahead...

Keep both eyes open...

Add conservative speeds and fuel flows to your plan. You may have mixed top speeds with best fuel burns...

The nice thing about the J is it's desiability by the widest audience...

Driving 600 miles would get old really fast.

When your aviation plan works, the J can be traded in for a 252, Bravo or Acclaim. The O1 is my favorite...

Being a PP is like having a side job. There is a small amount to do every day.

The pay-off can be huge.

Where or what type of flight school are you considering?

Best regards,

-a-

[scoobysmak]

I will quote this from a different thread, "questions on M20K/252/Encore"

 

 

Being a Bravo owner for about 5 months now, I'd say we burn about 4 gallons per hour more for same speeds as 252. What we get in return is a never ending climb rate. My airplane performs considerably better than the book in both cruise (not much) and climb (200 to 300fpm than book at published weights, book at our regular take off weight of about 3500lb). I'm not sure what the critial altitude of the big lycoming is, but I've never seen it yet. Being 150lb overgross on take off does not seem to affect anything other than maybe 200 feet more runway needed.

I see 195knots at 17-18K all the time at about 19.5 an hour at 32/2400, 180knots at 14.5 at 28/2200 at same altitude. 205 or so is doable, but takes close 22gph to keep temps cool.

I assume an Acclaim is probably 10 to 15 knots faster but 3 times the cost. I paid 130K for mine, spent about 10K on catch up maintenance. Everything works, 400 hours left on the engine supposedly (case and crank overhauled 1000 hours ago, new cylinders and camshaft at the same time) but 1600 or so since full overhaul. 400 since new exhaust, engine mounts, etc. New hoses at last annual. If I'm lucky, I'll run another 800 hours, if not, Central Cylinder in Omaha quoted me 39,000 with new cylinders but no exhaust so probably 50,000 after all is said and done if I do most of the removal and installation work.

 

 

I looked at the deltahawk page again, the dry weight difference between the Lycoming IO-360 A Series engine and the 200HP deltahawk engine is one pound.  Installed weight was 20 Lbs heavier for the diesel, it does depend on how far forward that 20 Lbs actually is but don't think CG limits would be too far off.  That 20 Lbs might also just be for the type aircraft they used, Velocity pusher configuration.  The main thing I saw in the post above that caught my eye was the following, " Central Cylinder in Omaha quoted me 39,000 with new cylinders but no exhaust so probably 50,000 after all is said and done if I do most of the removal and installation work."  I know the engine quoted was a 6 cylinder and not a 4 cylinder but the cost was nothing to sneeze at.  How often should someone expect to spend this much on engine maint if say they flew 200 hours per year running LOP and did good routine/preventive maintenance?

 

I know I should never buy a plane and count on getting an STC approved, wait for the approval and then buy.  For all I know in a year after I have my PPL, deltahawk might be out of business or just producing things for the military and don't have time for GA aircraft.  I will focus more of my attention in the M20J territory but in a year plus after I get my PPL I will referrer back to this thread to see how much has changed.

[Bob - S50]

I've seen overhaul prices mentioned here or on the web anywhere from $16,000 to $30,000+ for an IO360 depending on whether you did it with you local A&P and helped, to sending it to a specialty shop, to buying from Lycoming.  Take your pick.  Divide by the number of hours you expect to get to come up with a per hour cost.  Our group figures $26,000/2000 hours = $13/hour.

 

I think your $10k-$12k/year for fixed costs are pretty close depending on your insurance and hangar costs.  We pay just under $2000/year for insurance and $215/month for an open hangar.  Our least experienced pilot has 700+ hours, a commercial, and instrument ratings... and seaplane but I hope he doesn't try to use that with the Mooney.  Our last annual cost us about $4000.  We spend about $600/year for GPS database updates.

 

Bob

[scoobysmak]

Where or what type of flight school are you considering?

Best regards,

-a-

 

At this moment something local, not many options.  I did the google and found that a company called A.F.I.T. offers a PPL in 14 days, seemingly had good reviews but admit I am very skeptical on a program like that, plus downloaded the brochure and my virus scan deleted it saying it was infected???  Not a whole lot of confidence after that.

 

Looking around it says the average student takes about 55-65 hours of flight instruction before they get certified.  At the local flight school just the cost to rent the plane for 60 hours was around $5500-$6900 depending on the plane you wanted to learn in, only 150's and 172's offered.  I glanced at prices for used aircraft in the bargain area as you might call it.  The 150's can be seen for 15K and up, the 172's seemed to start at 22K and up.  I also saw a few piper 140's in the 18k area.  The cruise speed of the 150 and the piper 140 is pretty much the same but the piper 140's range was to my 450 nmile mark (I do not know if that included reserves or not though).  I really didn't focus on the 172 since it was more pricey.  I did see where the 150 looks like it burns 6 gal per hour Vs the 8 gals per hour of the piper for the same speed, of course honestly you need to build up time not mileage as a new pilot.  Renting the plane seem to be the most costly part of getting your license, probably about 75-80% of it.  

 

Things I don't know yet, can you hire a CFI to give you personal instruction so it would be most convenient for both parties involved, plus might save a little bit of money (I will admit not all instructors are of the same caliber just because they can instruct, put a buyer beware warning on this one).  Next would a flight school train someone in their own plane or still make you rent on of theirs?  How much money would it really save buying your own plane to train on?  

 

Say it takes a year to get your PPL, it cost 100 a month for a tie down spot (don't think I would spend the money for a hanger on any of these aircraft, probably not many have in the past either).  How much money in annuals would I be spending?  Insurance I have no clue about.  Does someone need insurance just to fly or only when they own an aircraft?  Owning an aircraft and not even have a PPL, I could see a very costly insurance bill.  With all this added up probably makes more since just to rent the plane but I would rather spend 20k and fly around a bit, learn the pitfalls and then sell it for a 3-4k loss.  In renting a plane I can't fly at my convenience and I pretty much burned an extra 3k with nothing to show for it.  if I bought a plane I am pretty sure I would start building up hours much faster for lower insurance rates to follow.  The downside to purchasing a plane, say the motor needs a complete rebuild before I even complete my PPL, a costly expense.

 

Like life its a gamble, just have to gamble smartly with the most "correct" information you can get.

[KSMooniac]

Buying a trainer to learn in is definitely a gamble, but might be worth it to you.  You'll have the opportunity to fly much more often (presuming your CFI's schedule aligns) and make consistent progress.  The risk comes in having a mechanical breakdown that might ground the plane for a while, and destroy your progress.  If that happens at a flight school, you simply switch planes.  If it is your plane, you write a big check.  If the engine shoots craps, you write a huge check.  BUT, if you bought a GOOD 150 or 152 for $20k (they're out there) with a recent overhaul and consistent use to keep things from rusting/failing in the engine, it is conceivable that you could get your PPL in it, fly it for a year or two, and sell it for $20k.  If you get the wrong one, you could put $10-$15k into an overhaul and then sell it for $20k.  Going this route would give you a good lesson in ownership before buying your "forever" plane too.

[carusoam]

Each time you load up on risk your chances of success takes a hit. Increasing the pace of things has many costs.

What is your mission???

1) save money

2) get experience

3) get it over with in a timely manner

Why own a plane if you want to use it and move on. Getting stuck with a maintenance issue will wipe out any of the savings in your plan.

Yes, you can get a PPL in a short period of time. But the experience can't be bought that easily.

If it takes a year to get the PPL, you will get a valuable year's experience with that.

It's the experience that you want. Right?

To financially help yourself with your decisions, contact your insurance guy. Speak honestly with him.

When he quotes you thousands of dollars extra because you don't have certain experience, this is helpful to understand the depth of the risks you are taking.

Flying a plane...

Not having a PPL is a high risk

Not having 100hrs of experience is a high risk

Using a complex plane increases risk

Having an instrument rating decreases risk.

Getting a PPL and IR in one month would be technically challenging. Can you take a full vacation from work?

The first lessons are low cost. Buy the book and read it. If you are naturally intelligent and have skills things will progress.

If you are used to thinking in 3D, like high speed multi-tasking, work well under pressure, and have an understanding how stress, diet, sleep and oxygen effect your cognitive processes, things will work really well for you!

If you like to delegate these types of things because they make you uncomfortable....this is a sign to slow down and get trained.

What you may not see in my discussion is the overall positive message that I am trying to convey.

Best regards,

-a-

[scoobysmak]

I will have to look into everything more when I return to the US.  At this moment my first goal is to see what CFI's are in the area or is the local flight school my only choice.  If the local flight school is my only option I am probably better off renting anyway.  I would have to schedule my time with them and it could take me longer since I am not spending as much money at their facility (I doubt I would be a higher priority than the students they are training).  I could take a couple weeks off work to do a "crash" course (terrible wording) but I would rather space my time out and probably be a bit more relaxed in the learning phase.  The only reason I mentioned the 2 week PPL course was because I only found one flight school in my area, that was the only other thing that really popped up on google.  

 

If I can find a local CFI with flexible hours and had my own plane it would speed up the process for getting my PPL, I think I would do more than 60 hours of instruction with this arrangement, as you say experience can not be bought.  I also think its good to learn during all times of the year, this will teach you in the summer about how much more runway you might need and during the winter what weather you need to avoid so icing doesn't occur.  I would be tempted to purchase a piper cherokee 180 since it has a little better speed and range than a Cessna 150.  Of course the price goes up and like I mentioned before unless I can make a 180 sip fuel at 6 gph I am wasting money building flight hours.  The only real reason for wanting the 180 for a starter plane is I could make my 450 nm trip a little quicker and might not have to stop.  The 150 though has proven itself as a really good training platform, not sure if the 180 could take the same amount of abuse (I hope not to abuse anything though).  I would only be looking to use this until I build up enough time so the switch to a complex aircraft wouldn't be as expensive on insurance, I am guessing that is the 100hr mark mentioned above but I understand that could be just an estimate.  

 

Someone mentioned before, actually getting my IFR certification would be best in my "forever" plane.  Is there a particular reason, is the IFR cert for a specific platform and or equipment?  If the 180 already had the IFR rating then I could do both before I traded up but If I had to pay a premium on insurance later because I didn't learn in the "forever" plane I see a dilemma.  I am sure this is something for an insurance company to answer which brings me to my next question.  I have not even looked at insurance but what are some of the common situations that occur that you normally would not see getting an insurance policy for say a car.  I don't think USAA does policies for aircraft so I really don't know what direction to look besides the internet.  What does it cover, should I have extra coverage on some other policy.  I am sure most of these would be answered best by someone in the insurance field but figured I would ask so I halfway know what to expect.  

 

Some of the answers to the questions asked above:

 

What is my "mission" (I will add to that question by saying, "mission to get my PPL" by owning my own aircraft)?

1) to gain experience and be a safe pilot

2) to have a more flexible schedule, this will speed up the process to obtain my PPL, NOTE: getting my PPL in a fixed amount of time is not a goal but the sooner I achieve this the sooner I will start logging more hours.

3)be able to build up hours by flying instead of driving my 450 nm trip, this is so I can start my IFR certification sooner, I believe you need so many hours as pilot in command before your allowed to begin your IFR certification (another thing for me to learn about).

 

I still might be better off renting a plane for this entire process (even the 450 nm trips) but until I really get the fine details this is what I see that works out best in my head at least.  

 

When you say buy the book and read it, may I ask what book your referring to, is it a generic FAA study guide for test or something else?

 

I don't mind the questions, sometimes the "seemingly" best plan has the biggest flaw in something so obvious it was overlooked.  The more thought that goes into something usually results in the best outcome.

 

The final goal of everything would be to have a plane that has good speed and economy, does 90% of what I need, and do everything in my power to reduce the fixed cost that will occur just by owning any aircraft (things like owner assisted annuals included plus getting more hours and IFR certs to reduce insurance cost).

[carusoam]

http://www.americanflyersmorristown.net

http://www.americanflyers.net

Compare your results to these guys.

No affiliation to me. I used them for my IR. They have several instructors. They have several planes. They have a strong learning system. They can match the frequency that you have available. They have several locations around the US. You can finish your PPL then move onto IR and commercial...

As ideal as they are...their price is a little higher than a local CFI with a C150. Don't focus too much on price, when convenience sounds more like what you need.

USAA is an excellent place to start. They don't write aviation policies, but they act as an insurance broker who deals directly with the handful of aviation insurance companies. They have car, house, mortgage, investment services as well... (My old man was an Army guy)

Insurance is similar to the automotive variety. It can cover the plane, and what you hit. Just remember, a $10k C150 has the ability to destroy a $200k Ovation in the hands of an errant new pilot. Find the search box at the top of this page. You can find a lot of info about insurance by the users...

Did I mention, 'hope' is not a good flight plan. Wishful thinking won't get you very far either...

Every flight school will use a textbook or binder of pages that covers all the details that you will need know for the FAA's written exam. This information is the fundamentals of what you need to know to fly. It is a compilation of the technical detail how various parts of a plane work, how gauges work and/or fail. Basically it is a book written at the level for a high school student. It will be somewhat challenging, Somewhat interesting, and somewhat boring. It breezes over regulations and skips past aircraft ownership completely.

The FAA also prints some very nice books, that may be available electronically?

Are you in the military? (We have quite a few members here)

Best regards,

-a-

[scoobysmak]

Yes, currently in the military getting "sandy" as we speak.

[Bob - S50]

As mentioned, USAA does not do aircraft insurance.  However, when I talked to them they gave me the number to their contacts who just happened to be Falcon.  Another good source for aviation insurance is through AOPA who I believe also use Falcon.  Others here on the forum have other companies they use.  Standard insurance usually includes coverage for liability, in motion and not in motion damage.

 

You can learn IFR on any plane properly equipped.  I learned on a T-37.  Every plane is a little different.  Steam vs. Glass, HSI vs DG, single vs twin, GPS vs. VOR, etc.  Then, each plane will use different power settings.  If you learn IFR in a C150 and then move to the Mooney, you'll be adding retractable gear, constant speed prop, cowl flaps, different power settings, different speeds.  This will be true any time you get in a different airplane.  I think what the previous person was suggesting was that you learn to fly in a trainer, then get your 'forever' Mooney.  Fly it for awhile to get comfortable with the panel, with retractable gear, with the constant speed prop, with speeds and power settings, with how to land.  Once you are comfortable, go find a good Mooney instructor and get your IFR ticket.

 

Don't be in too much of a hurry.  The last thing you want is to find yourself flying an instrument approach to near minimums while solo in a plane you are still not comfortable with.

 

Bob

[bonal]

First off a heart felt THANK YOU for your service.

There have been other posts about starting out in a complex renting VS owning etc.

I will put my 2c in here as well. As others have pointed out "what is your mission" and from what I have read your mission is to get your PPL there is much training software I used the Grimes private pilot test prep and it worked great the sample tests are formatted exactly like the written you will take so when you do for real it looks the same so you already have a feel for the test. As for the renter vs owner issue well it sounds like there may be a problem with the training available where you will be based. If you own your plane you can find an instructor that may not be tied to a fixed school.

Your mission is to train so pick the best trainer. Others here know I'm biased but you can't beat a 150 for this mission. It is a simple aircraft and getting a pre buy should be much easier than for a Mooney. There are many available with decent hours on the smoh the thing about the Conti O200 is the cylinders if you find one with higher hours on the OH but with recent top end that motor will be fine the O200 bottom end is pretty bullet proof. The C150 is a great platform for teaching stick and rudder it's very forgiving but takes skill to fly right.

You should be able to find one for under 18,000 and if you take care of it you can sell it for close to what you paid. Fuel burn on mine was under 5 GPH in cruise and you can put a lot of hours on it once you solo for very low cost.

After I got my PPL before I got my Mooney my wife and I made several trips over 300 miles 100mph ground speed still kicks ass over a car. Once you get certified then look for your IFR platform Mooney and start getting used to its systems. As for insurance I had liability only on my 150 and it was less than 300 a year with AOPA.

Good luck to you and stay safe and thanks again for your service.

[carusoam]

Scoops,

Thank you for your service.

Best regards,

-a-

[bhilgy]

I'll just share my story over the last 4 years and what I learned in the process (It seems we might have a lot in common since I started flying for a specific purpose and moved through the process relatively quickly and recently):

 

I manage an 8 state region in the Midwest for a technology solutions company.  I make regular (weekly) trips to cities from 160-440nm from my home base.  These trips were typically made via car or very expensive commercial flights.  My company supports GA travel via a formal program.  I was introduced to GA via a co-worker who shared leadership responsibilities for a similar territory.  I rode with him over a 2 year period and fell in love with the flexibility and convenience of GA travel.  (I had grown and now despise even more TSA, unexplained flight delays and the general "wear out" of commercial flying).

 

Well my co-worker changes jobs a couple years in, I lost my ride, and I had an exceptionally crappy commercial experience.  Got back from that trip and signed up for flight training that day!  It took me 1 year to get my PPL, another 10 months to get my Instrument rating (this last July).  I started my training in FBO rental planes owned by the school.  After I soloed I joined a local club that had a trainer 172, a C-182, and A piper Arrow.  I got checked out in HP aircraft and retractable while I was advancing toward my Instrument Rating.  I bought my 1992 M20J in April, finished my instrument in it and already have 120 hours logged in the Mooney.  I've made some avionics upgrades (see my post in the Avionics Forum) and have it just the way I want it.....It's an IFR machine.

 

Here's a core dump of some of what I learned over the past 28 months since I committed to training:

 

The convenience you gain and the fun you have flying your own airplane for business purposes is awesome!

It's way more work and money than you expect to do the required work and continue to invest in being the "professional" pilot you need to be to travel for business purposes.

Make sure your wife understands and is comfortable with the time and financial commitment you are making.

Have a plan to fly before you start (you have a specific mission in mind like I do so all good)

Take control of your training experience, most CFIs are not in the business of making sure you finish.

Pick out some mentors who fly cross country regularly and ask lots of questions.  Do this early and share your training experience with them...you will learn a lot informally.If you have to balance a busy schedule it will take you longer and more flying hours to finish your PPL.

You never HAVE to be anywhere....don't let anyone (including your own subconscious) tell you differently!

The right club is a GREAT way to build time, get experience in different aircraft, meet a lot of fellow pilots, and figure out what you need for your mission (flying them for my intended purpose helped me know what I wanted)

I wouldn't buy a plane until I knew I would fly it for 5 plus years (you WILL spend money to make it your own and you can count on not getting most of that $$ back on resell...I personally think it's a lot easier to buy an airplane right now than sell one)

Buy a plane that fits 80% of your mission (I fly 90% of the time by myself)

Plan to fly regularly (every week if possible) to keep yourself fresh......not flying for three weeks or more will have you a bit rusty.

If you are going to fly IFR, fly it often (not IFR plans, actual IMC conditions.....it's way different)

Your training doesn't stop after any checkered...you need to continue to invest in learning (subscribe to lots of pubs, join AOPA/EAA, and participate in forums)

 

All this being said, I'm a neophyte compared to many on this post but I do have the recent experience of training and buying.  You're on the right track in analyzing the aspects of aircraft choices.  Apply that same thoughtfulness to all aspects of your experience and you'll be well served.