KSN 770 demo/ ADS-B Q&A

[M016576]

Thanks for the update!

I have an Aspen as well, and actually don't really care for their user interface. I do like their price point better than garmin, which is why I picked the Aspen... Reference my comments from above about not wanting to pay an extra 6k for user interface alone. I'm willing to bet that many others took a look at the price difference between an Aspen and a garmin and said "Aspen" even though they don't like interface as much. because the creature comforts just aren't worth 6-10k more.

My guess? King looked at the popularity of the Aspen and adopted its interface, thinking "look how popular this is- it will sell like hot cakes to Aspen owners." But they MISSED THE POINT, on the PRICING.

It's a beer interface for a champagne price. They needed to do it the other way around. Same with avidyne. But everyone is hanging out in the 12-15000 range. Dude- these things should be 7K max, if they really want to sell them to GA.

I have to caveat all this: it's my opinion- and I don't know the cost that these company's must pay for certification. So my philosophies may not be feasible.

But with the raping we all take for NavData and chart updates- perhaps that's where these companies could offset their certification costs.

[carusoam]

The BK stack of avionics would look nice in the center of my panel.

There are many new combinations of knobs, buttons and a joystick? device plus the touch screen.

I don't have a G screen to compare to.

Open architecture with intent to integrate with others is beneficial.

So much to take in, so little time to get a feel for it.

Best regards,

-a-

[M016576]

The BK stack of avionics would look nice in the center of my panel.

There are many new combinations of knobs, buttons and a joystick? device plus the touch screen.

I don't have a G screen to compare to.

Open architecture with intent to integrate with others is beneficial.

So much to take in, so little time to get a feel for it.

Best regards,

-a-

I'm all for open architecture- I wish all brands would come to a standardized conclusion: then we could buy prefabricated harnesses and drive our install costs from 40 hours down to 2 hours. I don't know if Bill or any other avionics shops would like that, though.

I'm also all for an intuitive display and user interface. There is no excuse these days in the era of the iPhone and mobile operating systems to have anything other than an easy to use, powerful display.

I think that your description of the interface "so much to take in, so little time to get a feel for it" sums up the interface for me: it's not intuitive.

If it was well designed, my 4 year old would be able to "work it" without instruction and not need time to "take it in"... Just like an iPhone.

PS- if anyone wants to start an avionics company with me, just send me a PM: we'll upend this industry!

[carusoam]

Most important!!!

The folks at Agape/Penn Avionics organized and set up a great day to touch and feel the hardware.

Thank you Bill, for organizing and informing.

The environment was neat and clean and very welcoming.

There were a few Mooney pilots that have excellent GA IFR experience that delivered excellent input/questions.

It is definitely getting tougher to compete with base line expectations being the non-certified iPhone 6+ with WingX.

Our expectations grow in leaps and bounds. The 770 capability, compared to my existing equipment, is measured in a Giant Leap.

It has WAAS skills and a generous color screen.

It was interesting to hear knowledgable people discussing screen structures, tabs, and the number of buttons needed to be pushed to get somewhere...

Thanks to the "NJ M" guys for sharing their latest updates. I saw fresh paint and an impressive M20C panel that included digital primary engine instruments.

And, the pulled pork sandwiches....Mmmmmmmmm!

Best regards,

-a-

[Bill Dunn]

That pulled pork was fantastic! I went out to a nice restraint with my family last night and I saw pulled pork on the menu. I didn't bother getting it because I thought to myself there is no way it is going to be as good as what I had earlier!

[Cris]

Although I missed the presentation due to a previous commitment, I have been in touch with the BK factory rep. He informed me that the KNS 770 would not display XM weather from my Garmin GDL 69. Thus I would have to change out my Garmin unit for BK's unit. There was also an issue with my GMX 200 MFD which I don't recall at the moment. The point is this unit may not be as universal with other equipment ie Garmin as described. For that reason I am now hesitant where I had been very positive. Of course for me the GTN 650 is an easy option but maybe the Avidyne 440 might work. In any event I suspect that Avidyne will have to bring their street price down once the initial demand is fulfilled.

[Piloto]

Interfacing between different brands using non ARINC/RTCA standards will always be a problem. There is not a universal definition of what the specifications should be. It is also subject to unexpected firmware changes. Best way to cope with the problem is to buy equipment of the same brand.

 

José

[Marauder]

Although I missed the presentation due to a previous commitment, I have been in touch with the BK factory rep. He informed me that the KNS 770 would not display XM weather from my Garmin GDL 69. Thus I would have to change out my Garmin unit for BK's unit. There was also an issue with my GMX 200 PFD which I don't recall at the moment. The point is this unit may not be as universal with other equipment ie Garmin as described. For that reason I am now hesitant where I had been very positive. Of course for me the GTN 650 is an easy option but maybe the Avidyne 440 might work. In any event I suspect that Avidyne will have to bring their street price down once the initial demand is fulfilled.

Cris -- sorry for the misunderstanding. I thought it was understood from the countless discussions we have had about Garmin integration, that Garmin doesn't integrate with anything but Garmin (at least not beyond the Nav signals). My comments about integration were directed at those companies that are working towards an open hierachy.

One of things I have asked Bill about is whether they would be willing to put together some materials to make owners aware of what integrates with what. Obviously, they would need to draw the line on technologies (like obsolete NavComs, etc). There are just too many permutations of the stuff we acquired over the years. But concentrating on GPS integration with ADS-B andoutput devices like PFDs/MFDs would be helpful. The benefit of knowing if box A will integrate with Box B and with/without limitations certainly would help make decisions on what upgrade path to follow.

The 770 will be at Agape all week. If you get a chance, might be worthwhile to look at it up close.

[PTK]

Here we go...how bad boy Garmin is so picky with who they allow to play in their sandbox...this ought to be good!!

.

[Cris]

Chris No misunderstanding here. You were doing your best to get the info out. And it was great for you to take the lead on this. My Thanks. As we have discussed this is almost a buyer beware mess across the industry. As Jose' said it may be best to chose just one mfg. even though one would like to mix and match. More to the point what works today in a mixed environment may well not work sometime down the line depending on future software/ firmware releases. With that said Garmin sold the GMX 200 MFD as open architecture but they don't seem to support that concept today or even provide timely updates to keep it operational. Mine drops off line periodically with XM weather due to some memory overload from XM. Garmin is well aware of the problem and promises a fix sometime before the end of the year. We'll see. I was also surprised to learn that Avidyne had to reverse engineer the maps protocol on this unit to get it to work with their IFD 550/440. Says a lot about Garmins open architecture support. I do understand that Garmin does not want to play nice for a number of reasons but the GMX 200 should not be part of that play because of Garmin's previous commitment. IMHO. Just sayin' and for the record I like Garmin I just want the benifit of the bargain.

[Marauder]

It will be an interesting year with Bendix King and Avidyne entering the GPS market.

I like the recent push with integrating the portable solutions with the certified boxes. That will add more utility and provide the redundancy most will want (using a portable solution to backup the certified hardware).

To be quite honest, the stuff we have available today is light years ahead of what was available when I started flying back in the 80s. I can still remember my first experience with a portable GPS not long after the government granted non military access to the satellites. I was like a kid in a candy store.

I will keep you posted on my progress with the ADS-B stuff I am working on.

[bnicolette]

image.jpg. image.jpg

 

We need a better selection of emoticons like BT has so we don't have to copy paste them.  Paging Craig!!!!

[PTK]

We need a better selection of emoticons like BT has so we don't have to copy paste them. Paging Craig!!!!

Seems like MS is not, umm... "open architecture" ?!

Bad MS...you don't play nice...bad boy!

[carusoam]

I am inclined to stay with one supplier as well. Wish I didn't have to...

Watching G change things buried in their software updates, blocking their customer's abilities, is somewhat disheartening...

I am looking forward to having one modern WAAS GPS Nav/com with GPSS that integrates with my KAP 150 AP.

Will my ADF, KLN 90B and secondary KX155 nav/comm be officially decommissioned?

I can't wait to see the successful launch of the new players. No weird antenna or wiring issues...

Will my WingX flight plan be able to be wifi loaded into my new KLN 770. Or, how would my iPad communicate with my navigator?

These are my day after questions,

-a-

[jetdriven]

One thing I'm tired of is King suddenly dropping supprt of their products when they're 5 years old. Such as the 5.000$ displays for the kln89B and KLN94C. And they are non waas and no plans to rectify that.

[carusoam]

A $15k box needs to go 20years...

Radios in my panel are 20 years old.

The kln94 has it's own self destructing panel issues. It is sensitive to pressure. It is not a touch screen. Renters break them trying to make them touch screens.

Now, no support?

Best regards,

-a-

[donkaye]

A $15k box needs to go 20years...

Radios in my panel are 20 years old.

The kln94 has it's own self destructing panel issues. It is sensitive to pressure. It is not a touch screen. Renters break them trying to make them touch screens.

Now, no support?

Best regards,

-a-

 

I had a small problem with error messages on my GDL 88 and more recently with the display on the GTX 330ES.  They were immediately replaced by Garmin.  I'lll stick with my nearly all Garmin panel, thank you.  There is definitely a benefit of owning the Big Elephant in the room.

[Cris]

One thing I'm tired of is King suddenly dropping supprt of their products when they're 5 years old. Such as the 5.000$ displays for the kln89B and KLN94C. And they are non waas and no plans to rectify that.[/quote

Well That reminds me that BK promised a Wass upgrade to the KLN 94 which also did not happen. Guess I did not get the benefit of that bargain either. I am concerned that BK does not seem to have the depth of engineering that is required to keep these products current. I think of their recent PFD which was the sister to the KLN 770 that was dropped from the line. Apparently that box was contracted to be built by an outside company and BK did not or could not understand the software in order to make changes. Makes me worry about the KNS 770 since it seems it was built by Avidyne. That 3rd party support is always an issue.

[Marauder]

The dynamics between Honeywell and Bendix King is what worries me. Even the sales rep mentioned it during the demo (when he spoke about his tag line on his shirt). I think Honeywell is willing to let the BK division swim on its own, but there are some pretty deep dark waters out there in the avionics ocean. If the mothership doesn't provide a few life preservers from time to time, them boys are going to get tired treading water.

If I were tea leaf reader or perhaps a minor league soothsayer, the market looks prime for some consolidation. None of the little guys on their own can take on the gorilla. He has just too many bananas stashed away.

[fantom]

...... There is definitely a benefit of owning the Big Elephant in the room.

 

....until a bigger elephant kicks them off their throne, which is bound to happen some day.

[PTK]

....until a bigger elephant kicks them off their throne, which is bound to happen some day.